Against new class hall pets!!

[Paladance]

What I don't like currently is that you need to sink your nose in the (not Order) resources to ensure you're doing it efficiently.
Perhaps you always have to one way or another, but making your own attempts is just impossible now.

For example, dungeons. You decide to do a dungeon because of a someone's keystone. Then it's done, but you get an uber-legendary quest for the same dungeon, though you wouldn't do it on M+ anyway because these give no custom loot. Ah, and two hours later a WQ pops out? Oh, we're sorry. Better check out your profession quests now even though at the moment you just gather some leftovers in the world. Same with raids to a certain extent.

And thanks Semlar for Nomi Cakes. I'd waste reagents and lockouts for a recipe that never comes, because of discovering everything for a particular item already. Connection between recipes is so intuitive when it's done randomly, and the unknown recipes can't be browsed by a source.

Sorry for a bit of digression, but things like these seem to lengthen the grind even more.

[Killerkarl]

100% the PVP grind should not be needed on both horde and alliance to get the rewards - one should be enough. But for me a 'season' 2 pet (at least they are not Battle pets just vanity) shouldn't have been added and defiantly not a Season 3 or 4 etc..

I really wish they would tell us what the plans are so we could make plans ourselves. That way I could have already leveled a DK, Monk and Rogue instead of leveling the wrong classes like I did.

I am continuing to grind out Prestige and am nearing Prestige 8. If I knew for sure that they were not adding more pets as rewards I could stop this grind but it is likely that 2 more will be coming somewhere between ranks 10-19.

[Maizing]

but if this can be a source of any analogy, [pet]Red Cricket[/pet] still is uncageable. Though maybe it's just a fact it was a personal gift.

The Red Cricket is more like an achievement pet to me. It's guaranteed for accomplishing a one time feat (friendship grind). Achievement pets have traditionally been BoP and not cageable, so I can see why the cricket remains that way.

Class pets? Not really in the same category IMO, as most of them (so far) rely on RNG.

The [pet]Red Cricket[/pet] could be caged when it was first introduced. I sold several of them on the AH myself. Then they changed that because (as you say) it is an achievement pet. I really don't see them reversing that change.

What concerns me most about these Legion Class Order Hall pets is: Are they still going to be obtainable when the next expansion launches? I have not bought Legion (for a multitude of reasons), so the only Legion pets I have are ones I bought from the AH or was given by friends. Looking at the requirements, I could be spending several years after Legion is added to the battle chest just getting the class pets. I guess it's a good thing that I already have at least one alt of every class to level 100 already (except Demon Hunter of course)... but if these pets are going to be expansion specific (the way some mounts are), then that won't do me any good.

[Gráinne]

What concerns me most about these Legion Class Order Hall pets is: Are they still going to be obtainable when the next expansion launches?

OUCH.

Now, there's a thought that's gonna fester.

I kind of figure I'll get the class hall pets sometime, maybe not all this expansion. And Lagan. I'll get the first Alliance PvP pet, and probably just about manage the Horde one, grumbling, but the Prestige 7 pets might as well be on Mars, AFAIAC.

But if these go away, I might as well throw in the towel now.

[Quintessence]

Ultimately, I think a cancer on this game is the entitlement a lot of players feel and a disregard for the other player.

I agree, there are many situations where we get too comfortable in our own individual bubbles and/or communities and forget to consider players that are different from us.

This is why I'm advocating so hard for a compromise on the class pets.

I'm fortunate enough to have the time and resources to go for the DK/Monk/Rogue pets. Others, possibly many others, may not. Be it due to time constraints, gold (for character boosts) or even a huge dislike for a certain class. I think they should be represented and considered too. Telling them to "just wait, you can do it later" is more of a brush off than addressing their concerns.

As it stands, many collectors feel like they don't even have a chance. These players need to be considered as well.

A compromise wouldn't be to make the pets all generic. A slight adjustment to how the DK (and maybe Monk) pets are obtained would serve to ensure that different types of players/collectors simply feel they CAN be included in this particular activity. It would still be up to them to decide whether or not to put the time into it.

What concerns me most about these Legion Class Order Hall pets is: Are they still going to be obtainable when the next expansion launches?

[url=https://twitter.com/Muffinus/status/832034459138428928]Jeremy Feasel noted[/url] that they will not be removing the class pets next expansion. Is this the same as, "These pets will be available to collect next expansion"? Not exactly, but it can be seen as implying that.

This doesn't really indicate whether or not there will be additional catch-up mechanics post-Legion or if there will be more barriers (intentionally or unintentionally).

[Paladance]

With a continuing debacle on what is an effort and what is not, I think it would be helpful to suggest what amount of time a humble collector would spend for a particular pet and accompanying rewards.

After recalling several events from previous expansions, I can estimate it for myself as a month, two hours per day. What time would you spend yourselves?

I still do not find any of the 7.2 requirements, nor non-basic Prestige attempts, comprisable in that value.

[Tarty]

[url=https://twitter.com/Muffinus/status/832034459138428928]Jeremy Feasel noted[/url] that they will not be removing the class pets next expansion. Is this the same as, "These pets will be available to collect next expansion"? Not exactly, but it can be seen as implying that.

This doesn't really indicate whether or not there will be additional catch-up mechanics post-Legion or if there will be more barriers (intentionally or unintentionally).

That will depend how Blizzard will manage the Artifact Weapon after Legion, because for now 3 classes require a full Artifact... for Druid/DH-Lock/shaman you can work on pet class in long term.

Also, I think soon or later Blizzard will introduce the pets for all the remaining classes, that probably will be tied with Argus invasion... and that can will make even harder to collect all of them.

[Digem]

I'm curious Badpathing, if there *had to be* a compromise on this, what would be acceptable for you?

Would you be ok with everything staying the same with DK/Monk pets, except for the part where we must learn all traits? In this hypothetical scenario, we'd still be required to empower our weapon(s), but there wouldn't be a requirement to unlock all artifact traits.

Or is this really an "all or nothing" type of situation for you, where any change from the pets' current iteration would seem a poor design choice? (I'm genuinely curious where you would draw the line here.)

I'm also curious why you think the grind for the PVP pets on both alliance and horde is so different from the grind for AP on different classes. Both are relatively mindless collecting of honor (for PVP) and AP (for the weapon).

Sure, you're doing it on different classes for the AP, but it's not as if collecting the AP provides any notable class lore or fantasy IMO. If you want a unique class experience, I think the campaign is the best way.

I collect AP from the same WQs on a few 110s currently, and there's nothing extraordinarily different each time other than pushing different buttons. The goal of the WQ is the same. The result is the same for every toon I do it on.

By your logic, a grind that is mirrored across factions is not ok, but a grind that is pretty much mirrored across (two) classes (and in the case of the DK, mirrored across 3 weapons) is? To me, it's a pretty similar gating method.

If you don't agree that AP and honor grinds are similar, I'd love to hear why exactly (just to get a better understanding of your point of view).

Fair questions and I appreciate your curiosity.

To me, the pvp grind is a combination of a few things. For one, it forces players into two different factions, which isn't in my opinion always an o.k. design choice. Another concern is that it crosses into the pvp realm from a primarily pve activity. To be honest, as much as I don't like those two things I'm still OK with them..I firmly believe that variety is the spice of...well..pet collecting.

However, the grind is significant. Months significant. And it completely lacks creativity. For that single reason, I object to it. There really is no difference in the two pets and the grind. It's just, painfully redundant.

Comparing it to the class grinds, I guess I see it differently. I would claim it is a different sort of grind (despite the redundancy you point out across classes) simply because of how AP works. You can pretty much grind it out any way you like; hell, you can even do it passively through order hall missions. I know it's the same goal; max out a weapon, but I still don't see it as the same activity the way I do when looking at the prestige pets.

Or perhaps, the fact that I am alt-crazy just makes me blind to it.

Ultimately, I think a cancer on this game is the entitlement a lot of players feel and a disregard for the other player. WoW has worked for so many years for a lot of reasons, and one of them certainly being that it has many different carrots. There is no contract stating that pet collectors are a very specific type of player who want it a very specific way. When things like this happen, I see it as an opportunity for players to try new things.

And if you hate it, think how good it's going to feel to actually collect the pet. To EARN it.

I felt GREAT when I got the 250 pvp pet wins pet as I loathe pet pvp.

*edit* as for the compromise question..

I haven't thought much about it. I don't like merging it across all classes as was suggested earlier as I think the pets have some relationship to the class currently (theme-wise) and it would break that to make them "any class" eligible.

I am sure there is a compromise, but I don't have one and since I am pretty happy with the current iteration, I don't see myself looking for one either.

While I don't like having to max out pvp prestige on both factions at least I can level say a DH, choose the class hall ability to complete one WQ a day and use it on pvp WQ. This way I could gather pvp prestige slowly but steadily with a push of a button. To max out any weapon is a grind. My main still on has it BM weapon to 49 and it's MM weapon to 37 so neither maxed yet and I haven't even touched SV. This is my main that I will do extra WQ's on, do dungeons, do mythic+'s, and raid on and it still isn't maxed on one weapon yet.
Now on an alt that maybe if I have time I will do the emissary quests and class hall at best will max out 3 weapons? Don't say AK will go up will help because you know that the AP needed for the new traits will equally go up too. Each point right now past 34 takes awhile and these new traits will take just as long. On an alt that I won't have time, desire or be good enough at to do everything possible on to max the weapon is beyond a daunting task.
Grinds like this don't add any difficulty but just mindless time wasting .
If I want more complexity or difficulty added to pet collecting do that by adding things like a new celestial tournament or by these pet dungeons. That adds to the pet scene not a mindless grind try to see the difference.

[Badpathing]

I'd like to point out that the achievement to unlock all of your traits is earned @ weapon level 34.

And I'll just say that @ AK 25, getting your weapon to 34 really isn't that hard.

Assuming a similar curve, I don't think getting 3 weapons to 'max' trait level like above will be as challenging as people make it out to be.

Hell, I have alts I don't even try to very hard on @ 35.

[Wootzy]

My feelings on the matter are that blizz is only after my money by keeping me online as long as possible with these long and boring grinds, were's the fun in that. They forget that the opposite is happening, because of this and the lack of cool pet content, I'm logging in ever less. I wish some one would take over and bring pet battles to the next level. This "mini" game has so much more potential.

[Quintessence]

I'd like to point out that the achievement to unlock all of your traits is earned @ weapon level 34.

If I'm not mistaken, empowering your weapon requires level 35 (at least one point into the last trait).

(Unless you're referring to some other achievement...?)

The achievement (Power Ascended) to earn each pet requires weapon level 43 (subject to change).

[Gráinne]

From that tweet, 548M AP for all four pets sounds alarming. Intuition about exponentials is hard, though, so I mathed it out.

At AK40, assuming the pattern of +25% per AK level holds, we will earn ~28.5 times more AP than we do now at AK25.

I know they're fiddling with dungeon numbers, so I'm measuring it in World Quests instead.

My average world quest shows a 50K AP reward. At AK40, that would then be a 1.4M AP reward.

548/1.4 = ~390 WQs for all four pets.

At 8 WQ/day, (or, probably, 6 plus 1 random HC/day) which is enough to induce only mild insanity, that's 48 days.

Which comes down to 12 days at ~1hr/day per pet.

UPDATE: according to Darkchyld's numbers below, which agree with the current numbers on Wowhead, AK40 would be a factor of 16 greater than AK25 rather than a factor of 28. This would make it 21 days per pet rather than 12 days. Of course, no numbers are final yet.

FURTHER UPDATE: according to Wowhead's PTR Build 23623 table, AK40 would be a factor of ~23 greater than AK25 rather than a factor of 16. This would make it 17 days per pet rather than 21 days. As we can very clearly see, no numbers are final yet.

Which is a lot of grinding if they're classes you don't like (which I don't!). It is also way out of line with, say, Shaman or Druid classes.

I still find them more possible than the Prestige PvP pets. However, what other pet grinds may be in store for other classes?

[Darkchyld]

Here are some of the numbers: Base - AK25 - AK40

Burrowing Worm Mandible - 180 - 45,000 - 720,000
Soldier’s Splendor - 250 - 62,500 - 1,000,000
Ceremonial Warden Glaive - 400 - 100,000 - 1,600,000
Glory of the Melee - 500 - 125,000 - 2,000,000
Shard of Compacted Energy - 750 - 187,500 - 3,000,000

[Desi]

My feelings on the matter are that blizz is only after my money by keeping me online as long as possible with these long and boring grinds, were's the fun in that. They forget that the opposite is happening, because of this and the lack of cool pet content, I'm logging in ever less. I wish some one would take over and bring pet battles to the next level. This "mini" game has so much more potential.

Agreed. It looks like a money grab without actually providing new and interesting pet content.

[Badpathing]

I'd like to point out that the achievement to unlock all of your traits is earned @ weapon level 34.

If I'm not mistaken, empowering your weapon requires level 35 (at least one point into the last trait).

(Unless you're referring to some other achievement...?)

The achievement (Power Ascended) to earn each pet requires weapon level 43 (subject to change).

Yes. 43...but then we will have higher AK levels. I fail to see how this is much different.

I just did the LFR wings on my hunter tonight, and boosted my weapon from 0-30. I'm sorry, I simply don't understand the pushback at this 'grind'.

[Gráinne]

Darkchyld, I have found another source that supports your numbers, Wowhead's 7.2 Artifact Calculator Updates: Artifact Power, Trait Ranks, Knowledge Ranks to 40

The AK increments in that table look hinky to me in that they are much flatter than the existing AK. Maybe they are moving from exponential to linear AK growth, or maybe those are not final.

However, let's say that we work with those instead.

In that case, we are working with a multiplier of 16 instead of 28, and my estimate goes from 12 days per pet to 21 days.

Thanks for the information! I will add a note to my earlier post.

[Quintessence]

Yes. 43...but then we will have higher AK levels. I fail to see how this is much different.

I wasn't pointing this out to state that there was a difference. I was just confused as I didn't see how your "achievement @ weapon level 34" comment related to this whole situation. That particular achievement isn't what collectors will need to aim for. Weapon level 35 is what's needed to begin the empower-quests (according to Wowhead) which is necessary for the pet.

I just did the LFR wings on my hunter tonight, and boosted my weapon from 0-30. I'm sorry, I simply don't understand the pushback at this 'grind'.

I think it's important to try and empathize with those whose gameplay experience would be negatively impacted by how these pets are currently implemented.

"Grindy" is subjective. A grind may not be a grind for you, but for someone that doesn't have the time, it could be a living nightmare of a task.

You and I may have time to run LFR on a character(s) each week, but others simply don't. Some just don't have time to level a second and third character. Or go through each campaign, gear that toon up appropriately to complete content, and gather the AP necessary.

All the time involved in that could be spent progressing on their main character and participating in pet-related content. Many view the DK pets as requiring a full on main swap, which is frustrating.

Because of this, many collectors feel like the upcoming class pets will be impossible for them to get, and that it's not even worth trying for. This is incredibly demoralizing and discouraging for some, and therefore they oppose the way these pets will be obtained.

This could all be resolved with a few adjustments to how the pets are obtained. The change I've proposed would not take away from the overall class experience, but would remove an unnecessary element from the equation (what many see as a "grind").

Will some collectors still be negatively impacted even if the requirements are slightly reduced? Unfortunately, yes. Nothing will or can appease everyone, and that's not what I'm advocating for. But changes might give those who once saw it as impossible some hope that it is possible in the long run.

[Digem]

I'd like to point out that the achievement to unlock all of your traits is earned @ weapon level 34.

If I'm not mistaken, empowering your weapon requires level 35 (at least one point into the last trait).

(Unless you're referring to some other achievement...?)

The achievement (Power Ascended) to earn each pet requires weapon level 43 (subject to change).

Yes. 43...but then we will have higher AK levels. I fail to see how this is much different.

I just did the LFR wings on my hunter tonight, and boosted my weapon from 0-30. I'm sorry, I simply don't understand the pushback at this 'grind'.

You keep digging your heels in here and most of time spouting bad to flat out wrong information. Yes getting to 34 like you said isn't that rough but getting to 43 or maybe higher is.
Have you taken a weapon past 34? Each point takes millions to get and takes more and more each point.
Add in on an alt I don't have time for Lfr. Between real life , wanting to work on my main raiding and running mythic+'s.
Between wait time and actually running Lfr can take an hour or more.
Please try to see this and not just keep spouting off nonsense

[Gráinne]

Further update on numbers.

Wowhead has a table for AK for the new PTR build

7.2 PTR Build 23623 Artifact Knowledge Scaling, Infinite Artifact Traits, New Emissary Cache Mounts

This brings the AK back closer to the familiar exponential scaling, and increases the factor for AK40 to about 23 from 16.

This leads us to about 17 hours per pet, rather than 21 or 12.

... assuming of course that the AP totals haven't changes as well ...

[Badpathing]

You keep digging your heels in here and most of time spouting bad to flat out wrong information. Yes getting to 34 like you said isn't that rough but getting to 43 or maybe higher is.
Have you taken a weapon past 34? Each point takes millions to get and takes more and more each point.
Add in on an alt I don't have time for Lfr. Between real life , wanting to work on my main raiding and running mythic+'s.
Between wait time and actually running Lfr can take an hour or more.
Please try to see this and not just keep spouting off nonsense

Actually, yes, I have two characters at 54, how about you?

And I'm digging my heels in because of comments like yours, constantly trying to shove irrational thinking and whining down throats. What I posted above was never meant to be a complete picture, that was obvious and I'm sorry you missed it. What it DOES however illustrate is that the AP grind currently isn't terrible. And with new AK, etc, it might be a bit worse, or not, but again...not terrible. Stop with the gloom and doom nonsense. The achievement for "all traits unlocked" is NOT earned at 54...

And as for your time; see my earlier comments about the fact that this game isn't made for you. Or me. It's made for everyone. If you don't have time, that's your issue and nothing was signed assuring you that all pet content would fit your world view.