Your write-up is thorough and well constructed. It's not so useful in practice to call any comp a perfect team....it may be misleading.
The Ghastly kid is fine but a p/p Emperor crab negates it's effects. The s/s Imp is very effective too but it gets no healing in sandstorms and little in Darkness
I have 2200 pet pvp wins to date and i enjoy the game for a filler between other WoW doings. The best team all around that I see lately is one that has darkness/bone barrage/consume corpse...
Nightshade sproutling s/s
Bone serpent h/h
Dread hatchling
It can be beaten of course...all teams can be beaten...but it is fast, effective and easy to play..,it also counters many current favorite pvp pets like mpd/teroclaw/weebom
I got this Darkness comp idea from Discodoggy's pet PvP blog. I have faced it and beat it with
Jademist dancer s/s
Vengeful porc
Dread hatchling
Tekulve
The Search For Equilibrium and The Perfect Team
-
Virgilioar
- Posts:29
- Joined:August 16th, 2013
- Pet Score:9047
- Realm:Stormrage-us
- Contact:
Before I begin I lay out a key:
-The order of the pets listed is from top/left to bottom/right
-The moves are not listed since the relevant moves are within the context
-At the end I list the nick names given to my pets so you may identify me in PVP
-Numbers may be off, I am doing them from memory at 4 am and completely
It all began with a dream, a once upon a time naive trainer who reached for the stars when presented with a choice of three pets.
Rabbit (S/S) - Fiendish Imp (S/S) - Unborn Val'kyr (B/B)
The idea was a behind the lines DoT (i.e.: Haunt + Nether Gate) with a time waste (Double Dodge - 357 speed) while the tank (Imp) healed up in the background. The issue was the obvious redundancy in bonus' leaving the Rabbit and the Imp vulnerable. And so was born:
Death Adder Hatchling (S/S) - Fiendish Imp (S/S) - Unborn Val'kyr (B/B)
Here Dodge is replaced with Blind adding the bonus of a free swap (Blind then go to Val'kry (B/B) and Haunt if enemy is slower than 244) smoothing out the swaps.
Why are swaps important?
Think of a pet battle as a 0 sum game where you get 1 hit in and they return where getting in an "extra" hit is equivalent to landing a higher damage attack or avoiding losing a turn. Losing a turn not only implies taking less damage, but also includes negating their move. For example, if I swap pets on a round my opponent dodges - assuming he faster and the dodge would have avoided my attack - I have successfully negated his dodge. If the pet I swap to has a passive ability like nature's ward, I did it again. Now imagine a Fiendish Imp (S/S) using Nether Gate first in the first move of a game. This resets the match forcing in the other pet and the enemy team with a -280 hp disadvantage. That hit means that if on my next move I swap and get hit for 280 the fight has literally reset.
Most argue that it depends circumstance and I agree. The rough idea is that by "gaining a move" you bank the option to at some point "cede a move" in the hopes that it leaves you in a better position. The Fiendish Imp (S/S) makes this relatively easy and guaranteed to the point that if encountering Flying Breeds, he will do 420 damage to mitigate his own. Additionally, Immolation + Humanoid Passive heals Fiendish Imp (S/S) in background.
FIENDISH IMP SUMMARISED:
-> TECHNICALLY if you open Fiendish Imp (S/S), apply Immolation (70x10 because of 1st hit = 700 DoT + 54x9 = 486 HoT), and use nether gate you deal a free 280 damage + 700 damage from DoT since you will heal whatever damage was done while applying Immolation (most attacks are under 486 damage. Again, Sandstorm, DoT Prots, but you get the idea. Free damage.
This style permits prioritizing swaps to reduce incoming damage or reposition with background damage and high control thanks to Nether Gate. The Death Adder Hatchling posed the problem that its Blind was limited to reducing % hit chance.In other words, any Hit Buff could therefore negate the DoT. This is unlike Dodge where Hit Chance is irrelevant. Hence:
Teroclaw Hatchling (H/P) - Fiendish Imp (S/S) - Ghastly Kid (H/H)
[IMAGE 1]
The reduction in damage from the loss of Doom was mitigated by the increased damage from the Alpha Strike. This is because Flying made the Teroclaw Hatchling (H/P) faster than 99% of pets pre-flying buff meaning it was more effective than Flurry.
TEROCLAW HATCHLING SUMMARISED
-> The ability to heal compounded with the Flying buff and the speed-based increased damage from Alpha Strike makes this pet very defensive. Additionally, the ability to dodge allows for "clean entry" (i.e. enter, dodge, HoT). This makes Teroclaw Hatchling (H/P) a great tank to take big hits and mitigate damage (you can swap him in on Minefield, for example, then Dodge, HoT, Swap out as if it never happened).
In terms of EQUILIBRIUM, the Teroclaw Hatchling (H/P) has the advantage that it can swap it's Class through Nature's Ward. As flying, it can strike down Water pets which would highly damage it as Elemental with Nature's Ward. This means the Teroclaw Hatchling (H/P) is Effective against Water while being neutral against Water attacks providing a counter for itself in Elemental. Refer to image 1 for a visual.
However, Elemental is strong against Mechanical presenting a contradiction between Teroclaw Hatchling (H/P) and Fiendish Imp (S/S). Magic was identified as the missing link in the chain. And so was born Equilibrium:
Hyjal Wisp (S/S) - Fiendish Imp (S/S) - Ghastly Kid (H/H)
[IMAGE 2]
I will spend more time here but must summarise the Hyjal Wisp (S/S) beforehand:
HYJAL WISP SUMMARISED
-> The trick behind the Hyjal Wisp (S/S) is the increasing damage with high survivability thanks too the ability to Dodge + the 325 Speed Line. Compiled with the Immolation DoT and the Haunt DoT, a Hyjal Wisp (S/S) can be positioned to burn through all pets including mechanical (231 at max damage + 140 Haunt + 105 Increased Immolation Damage = 476 damage to Mechanical -- 585 normal damage). Now, imagine a scenario where Hyjal Wisp (S/S) has 1hp. Fiendish Imp (S/S) is out against a pet slower than 325 and has weakened him to around 800hp. Here is the setup:
Fiendish Imp - Immolation
Swap to
Ghastly Kid - Haunt
Enter
Hyjal Wisp - Dodge
At this point the DoTs will kill the enemy, the key is to Dodge, Heal while invulnerable, and then kill the enemy avoiding being hit and using the turn where the Dodge drops to heal. This can also translate into sacrificing the Hyjal Wisp (S/S) and letting out a Heal before he dies in order to enter with A) Fiendish Imp (S/S) + Nether Gate for free heal or B) Ghastly Kid (H/H) + Ethereal for free heal against pets faster than 333. The basic just is that the Hyjal Wisp (S/S) provides an extraordinary amount of utility but lacks damage without wind. This leads us to Trunks.
Trunks (H/P) - Fiendish Imp (S/S) - Ghastly Kid (H/H)
[IMAGE 3]
Perfect equilibrium with the bonus of huge damage (if you do the math it comes out to about 402.625 damage per round for Trunks (H/P) ) in the form of burst countering DoT classes that counter Fiendish Imp (S/S) Immolation and Ghastly Kid (H/H) Haunt. Additionally, Moonlight offers a counter to weather effects and bonus to Nether Gate and Heals. Lastly, Avalanche is hands down beautiful. Trunks (H/P) and Fiendish Imp (S/S) perfectly compliment each other in terms of abilities.
Trunks' has 2 abilities that are strong against Flying and Weak against Mechanical while Fiendish Imp has the reverse. Additionally, their third moves are also compliments.
This means that either pet will be interchangeable in ANY situation damage wise. The Ghastly Kid (H/H) becomes the Always First Dodge/Easy Swap mechanism with the perk that the DoT can operate in the background when affected targets are swapped out by Fiendish Imp (S/S).
In Short a shit load of damage is being dealt.
Let's go one step beyond, break down:
Any Magic Pet with 350+ Damage per Round to Flying + Fiendsih Imp (S/S) + Ghastly Kid (H/H)
At this point we rely on the DoT's and Burst to get the team by any scenario. The key here is to realize that the control offered by the Fiendish Imp (S/S) and the smooth swaps offered by Ghastly Kid (H/H) are the backbone of this team.
Start with Imp, Immolation, swap to Kid, Haunt, enter magic pet... etc back to Imp
This cycle allows for you to return to a fully healthy Imp (assuming no DoT Prot) while putting out continuous damage. Some people have argued against reliability of the DoTs so an experiment was in order:
Disgusting Oozeling (H/B) - Fiendish Imp (S/S) - Ghastly Kid (H/H)
Corrosion (80+ Damage per Attack) + Acidic Goo (25% Increased Damage Taken) can empower the Dot's to hurt an Anubsiath Idol THRU Sandstorm for significant damage. I am not saying it counters all DoT Prot, but that's pretty badass.
To summarise, Imp and Kid offer DoT Damage + Tank (through Imp's heal) while a Magic prevents 1 Shot Kills (Iron Starlet *cough*). This allows for smooth swaps, constant damage, and flexibility.
Order of Mention, Nicknames for my pets:
Rabbit (S/S) - V Regina
Fiendish Imp (S/S) - V Rook
Unborn Val'kyr (B/B) - V Defile
Death Adder Hatchling (S/S) - V Hurley
Teroclaw Hatchling (H/P)- V Pidgy
Ghastly Kid (H/H) - V Desecrate
Hyjal Wisp (S/S) - V Sereus
Trunks (H/P) - V Vegetal
Disgusting Oozeling (H/B) - V Moco
-The order of the pets listed is from top/left to bottom/right
-The moves are not listed since the relevant moves are within the context
-At the end I list the nick names given to my pets so you may identify me in PVP
-Numbers may be off, I am doing them from memory at 4 am and completely
It all began with a dream, a once upon a time naive trainer who reached for the stars when presented with a choice of three pets.
Rabbit (S/S) - Fiendish Imp (S/S) - Unborn Val'kyr (B/B)
The idea was a behind the lines DoT (i.e.: Haunt + Nether Gate) with a time waste (Double Dodge - 357 speed) while the tank (Imp) healed up in the background. The issue was the obvious redundancy in bonus' leaving the Rabbit and the Imp vulnerable. And so was born:
Death Adder Hatchling (S/S) - Fiendish Imp (S/S) - Unborn Val'kyr (B/B)
Here Dodge is replaced with Blind adding the bonus of a free swap (Blind then go to Val'kry (B/B) and Haunt if enemy is slower than 244) smoothing out the swaps.
Why are swaps important?
Think of a pet battle as a 0 sum game where you get 1 hit in and they return where getting in an "extra" hit is equivalent to landing a higher damage attack or avoiding losing a turn. Losing a turn not only implies taking less damage, but also includes negating their move. For example, if I swap pets on a round my opponent dodges - assuming he faster and the dodge would have avoided my attack - I have successfully negated his dodge. If the pet I swap to has a passive ability like nature's ward, I did it again. Now imagine a Fiendish Imp (S/S) using Nether Gate first in the first move of a game. This resets the match forcing in the other pet and the enemy team with a -280 hp disadvantage. That hit means that if on my next move I swap and get hit for 280 the fight has literally reset.
Most argue that it depends circumstance and I agree. The rough idea is that by "gaining a move" you bank the option to at some point "cede a move" in the hopes that it leaves you in a better position. The Fiendish Imp (S/S) makes this relatively easy and guaranteed to the point that if encountering Flying Breeds, he will do 420 damage to mitigate his own. Additionally, Immolation + Humanoid Passive heals Fiendish Imp (S/S) in background.
FIENDISH IMP SUMMARISED:
-> TECHNICALLY if you open Fiendish Imp (S/S), apply Immolation (70x10 because of 1st hit = 700 DoT + 54x9 = 486 HoT), and use nether gate you deal a free 280 damage + 700 damage from DoT since you will heal whatever damage was done while applying Immolation (most attacks are under 486 damage. Again, Sandstorm, DoT Prots, but you get the idea. Free damage.
This style permits prioritizing swaps to reduce incoming damage or reposition with background damage and high control thanks to Nether Gate. The Death Adder Hatchling posed the problem that its Blind was limited to reducing % hit chance.In other words, any Hit Buff could therefore negate the DoT. This is unlike Dodge where Hit Chance is irrelevant. Hence:
Teroclaw Hatchling (H/P) - Fiendish Imp (S/S) - Ghastly Kid (H/H)
- IMAGE 1
- Screen Shot 2015-05-15 at 3.19.25 AM.png (254.95KiB)Viewed 11870 times
The reduction in damage from the loss of Doom was mitigated by the increased damage from the Alpha Strike. This is because Flying made the Teroclaw Hatchling (H/P) faster than 99% of pets pre-flying buff meaning it was more effective than Flurry.
TEROCLAW HATCHLING SUMMARISED
-> The ability to heal compounded with the Flying buff and the speed-based increased damage from Alpha Strike makes this pet very defensive. Additionally, the ability to dodge allows for "clean entry" (i.e. enter, dodge, HoT). This makes Teroclaw Hatchling (H/P) a great tank to take big hits and mitigate damage (you can swap him in on Minefield, for example, then Dodge, HoT, Swap out as if it never happened).
In terms of EQUILIBRIUM, the Teroclaw Hatchling (H/P) has the advantage that it can swap it's Class through Nature's Ward. As flying, it can strike down Water pets which would highly damage it as Elemental with Nature's Ward. This means the Teroclaw Hatchling (H/P) is Effective against Water while being neutral against Water attacks providing a counter for itself in Elemental. Refer to image 1 for a visual.
However, Elemental is strong against Mechanical presenting a contradiction between Teroclaw Hatchling (H/P) and Fiendish Imp (S/S). Magic was identified as the missing link in the chain. And so was born Equilibrium:
Hyjal Wisp (S/S) - Fiendish Imp (S/S) - Ghastly Kid (H/H)
- IMAGE 2
- Screen Shot 2015-05-15 at 3.27.01 AM.png (255.45KiB)Viewed 11870 times
I will spend more time here but must summarise the Hyjal Wisp (S/S) beforehand:
HYJAL WISP SUMMARISED
-> The trick behind the Hyjal Wisp (S/S) is the increasing damage with high survivability thanks too the ability to Dodge + the 325 Speed Line. Compiled with the Immolation DoT and the Haunt DoT, a Hyjal Wisp (S/S) can be positioned to burn through all pets including mechanical (231 at max damage + 140 Haunt + 105 Increased Immolation Damage = 476 damage to Mechanical -- 585 normal damage). Now, imagine a scenario where Hyjal Wisp (S/S) has 1hp. Fiendish Imp (S/S) is out against a pet slower than 325 and has weakened him to around 800hp. Here is the setup:
Fiendish Imp - Immolation
Swap to
Ghastly Kid - Haunt
Enter
Hyjal Wisp - Dodge
At this point the DoTs will kill the enemy, the key is to Dodge, Heal while invulnerable, and then kill the enemy avoiding being hit and using the turn where the Dodge drops to heal. This can also translate into sacrificing the Hyjal Wisp (S/S) and letting out a Heal before he dies in order to enter with A) Fiendish Imp (S/S) + Nether Gate for free heal or B) Ghastly Kid (H/H) + Ethereal for free heal against pets faster than 333. The basic just is that the Hyjal Wisp (S/S) provides an extraordinary amount of utility but lacks damage without wind. This leads us to Trunks.
Trunks (H/P) - Fiendish Imp (S/S) - Ghastly Kid (H/H)
- IMAGE 3
- Screen Shot 2015-05-15 at 3.47.33 AM.png (249.86KiB)Viewed 11870 times
Perfect equilibrium with the bonus of huge damage (if you do the math it comes out to about 402.625 damage per round for Trunks (H/P) ) in the form of burst countering DoT classes that counter Fiendish Imp (S/S) Immolation and Ghastly Kid (H/H) Haunt. Additionally, Moonlight offers a counter to weather effects and bonus to Nether Gate and Heals. Lastly, Avalanche is hands down beautiful. Trunks (H/P) and Fiendish Imp (S/S) perfectly compliment each other in terms of abilities.
Trunks' has 2 abilities that are strong against Flying and Weak against Mechanical while Fiendish Imp has the reverse. Additionally, their third moves are also compliments.
This means that either pet will be interchangeable in ANY situation damage wise. The Ghastly Kid (H/H) becomes the Always First Dodge/Easy Swap mechanism with the perk that the DoT can operate in the background when affected targets are swapped out by Fiendish Imp (S/S).
In Short a shit load of damage is being dealt.
Let's go one step beyond, break down:
Any Magic Pet with 350+ Damage per Round to Flying + Fiendsih Imp (S/S) + Ghastly Kid (H/H)
At this point we rely on the DoT's and Burst to get the team by any scenario. The key here is to realize that the control offered by the Fiendish Imp (S/S) and the smooth swaps offered by Ghastly Kid (H/H) are the backbone of this team.
Start with Imp, Immolation, swap to Kid, Haunt, enter magic pet... etc back to Imp
This cycle allows for you to return to a fully healthy Imp (assuming no DoT Prot) while putting out continuous damage. Some people have argued against reliability of the DoTs so an experiment was in order:
Disgusting Oozeling (H/B) - Fiendish Imp (S/S) - Ghastly Kid (H/H)
Corrosion (80+ Damage per Attack) + Acidic Goo (25% Increased Damage Taken) can empower the Dot's to hurt an Anubsiath Idol THRU Sandstorm for significant damage. I am not saying it counters all DoT Prot, but that's pretty badass.
To summarise, Imp and Kid offer DoT Damage + Tank (through Imp's heal) while a Magic prevents 1 Shot Kills (Iron Starlet *cough*). This allows for smooth swaps, constant damage, and flexibility.
Order of Mention, Nicknames for my pets:
Rabbit (S/S) - V Regina
Fiendish Imp (S/S) - V Rook
Unborn Val'kyr (B/B) - V Defile
Death Adder Hatchling (S/S) - V Hurley
Teroclaw Hatchling (H/P)- V Pidgy
Ghastly Kid (H/H) - V Desecrate
Hyjal Wisp (S/S) - V Sereus
Trunks (H/P) - V Vegetal
Disgusting Oozeling (H/B) - V Moco
Last edited by Virgilioar on May 17th, 2016, 12:09 am, edited 3 times in total.
-
Tekulve2012
- Posts:800
- Joined:December 27th, 2012
- Pet Score:4376
- BattleTag®:kingsfoiler#1479
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- Contact:
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Virgilioar
- Posts:29
- Joined:August 16th, 2013
- Pet Score:9047
- Realm:Stormrage-us
- Contact:
Re: The Search For Equilibrium and The Perfect Team
Thank you for your compliments, they are happily received! Also, THANK YOU for bringing this up.
First and foremost:
Using the Fiendish Imp, Ghastly Kid, Hyjal Wisp team I was able to beat EVERY team encountered over a two week period EXCEPT:
Bone Serpent (H/H) - Dread Hatchling (P/P) - Frostfur Rat (S/S)
This was played by a friend of mine who is very good and - like me - has recently dedicated 100% of his WoW Time to Pets. The basic gist of it is that his 100% uptime of Darkness (Call Darkness on every Pet) basically neglected my healing from the Hyjal Wisp (S/S). As for Fiendish Imp (S/S) healing, it's irrelevant to the extent that so long as it does damage (even in Darkness) it will remain effective. In other words, the damage component of the Immolation is stronger than the healing component (70x10=700 DoT vs 54x10=540 HoT). Looking at it as absolute zero (+1 for me is -1 for you), then the damage is the key. Sandstorm is no real issue thanks to the Heal/Dodge/350 (wound up) damage + the DoT protection from Sandstorm itself together giving Hyjal Wisp (S/S) more than enough power to kill an Anubsiath Idol and most other Sandstorm casters. It's also not an issue with Trunks (H/P) swapped in for the Hyjal Wisp (S/S) thanks to Moonlight.
As for the Emperor Crab, Hyjal Wisp (S/S) is Magic and therefore resilient to Water attacks (i.e.: surge). The detail here is setting it up so you can Haunt the Crab/Anub and then go right into winding up with Hyjal Wisp (S/S), healing, and finishing off the enemy.
For these reason I realised the need to have:
1) A weather effect to counter 100% darkness uptime, specifically a healing increasing weather effect
2) An AOE effect to take out Undead/Mechanical in the background when Ghastly Kid (H/H) is countered.
This produced:
Trunks (H/P) - Fiendish Imp (S/S) - Ghastly Kid (H/H)
I have yet to face a decent Bone Serpent team. When I do I will communicate my results.
Finally, I would like to address the title. You make an EXCELLENT point, there is NO SUCH THING AS A PERFECT TEAM!. The goal is more geared towards finding a team that could THEORETICALLY if played correctly defeat any team. That's not to say it is unbeatable, but it can hold its own in any situation against any Class composition. I believe I found that by introducing Trunks into the mix with the downside that his no cool down ability is a 50% hit chance. This, assuming decent RNG, is manageable thanks to the high damage of his 100% hit abilities, the fact that one of those is a strong AOE, and the high damage of the 50% miss chance When Elekks Fly.
Last note on the Bone Serpent (H/H) - Dread Hatchling (P/P) team:
-> As far as I understand the key are these two pets and their high damage output mixed with a defensive "tank" that can handle Magic and Critter pets. I am currently experimenting with the Bone Serpent (H/H) and will have a better idea of it's capabilities soon. However, as it stands, I defer from the consensus that it is the best pet. In my humble opinion, if it is possible to deem any pet as the "best," this title goes to the Fiendish Imp (S/S) thanks to his general versatility and high damage output alongside the Nether Gate force swap. At some point I will look into analysing and breaking down the Fiendish Imp vs the Bone Serpent.
First and foremost:
Using the Fiendish Imp, Ghastly Kid, Hyjal Wisp team I was able to beat EVERY team encountered over a two week period EXCEPT:
Bone Serpent (H/H) - Dread Hatchling (P/P) - Frostfur Rat (S/S)
This was played by a friend of mine who is very good and - like me - has recently dedicated 100% of his WoW Time to Pets. The basic gist of it is that his 100% uptime of Darkness (Call Darkness on every Pet) basically neglected my healing from the Hyjal Wisp (S/S). As for Fiendish Imp (S/S) healing, it's irrelevant to the extent that so long as it does damage (even in Darkness) it will remain effective. In other words, the damage component of the Immolation is stronger than the healing component (70x10=700 DoT vs 54x10=540 HoT). Looking at it as absolute zero (+1 for me is -1 for you), then the damage is the key. Sandstorm is no real issue thanks to the Heal/Dodge/350 (wound up) damage + the DoT protection from Sandstorm itself together giving Hyjal Wisp (S/S) more than enough power to kill an Anubsiath Idol and most other Sandstorm casters. It's also not an issue with Trunks (H/P) swapped in for the Hyjal Wisp (S/S) thanks to Moonlight.
As for the Emperor Crab, Hyjal Wisp (S/S) is Magic and therefore resilient to Water attacks (i.e.: surge). The detail here is setting it up so you can Haunt the Crab/Anub and then go right into winding up with Hyjal Wisp (S/S), healing, and finishing off the enemy.
For these reason I realised the need to have:
1) A weather effect to counter 100% darkness uptime, specifically a healing increasing weather effect
2) An AOE effect to take out Undead/Mechanical in the background when Ghastly Kid (H/H) is countered.
This produced:
Trunks (H/P) - Fiendish Imp (S/S) - Ghastly Kid (H/H)
I have yet to face a decent Bone Serpent team. When I do I will communicate my results.
Finally, I would like to address the title. You make an EXCELLENT point, there is NO SUCH THING AS A PERFECT TEAM!. The goal is more geared towards finding a team that could THEORETICALLY if played correctly defeat any team. That's not to say it is unbeatable, but it can hold its own in any situation against any Class composition. I believe I found that by introducing Trunks into the mix with the downside that his no cool down ability is a 50% hit chance. This, assuming decent RNG, is manageable thanks to the high damage of his 100% hit abilities, the fact that one of those is a strong AOE, and the high damage of the 50% miss chance When Elekks Fly.
Last note on the Bone Serpent (H/H) - Dread Hatchling (P/P) team:
-> As far as I understand the key are these two pets and their high damage output mixed with a defensive "tank" that can handle Magic and Critter pets. I am currently experimenting with the Bone Serpent (H/H) and will have a better idea of it's capabilities soon. However, as it stands, I defer from the consensus that it is the best pet. In my humble opinion, if it is possible to deem any pet as the "best," this title goes to the Fiendish Imp (S/S) thanks to his general versatility and high damage output alongside the Nether Gate force swap. At some point I will look into analysing and breaking down the Fiendish Imp vs the Bone Serpent.
Re: The Search For Equilibrium and The Perfect Team
It's great that you're looking at it analytically like that. It's helpful to look at the big picture like that, and consider that what pet battling boils down to is really reducing the sum total of your opponent's pets' HP to zero - you do this by outvaluing your opponent and putting more damage down onto the field more efficiently than your opponent.Virgilioar wrote:Think of a pet battle as a 0 sum game where you get 1 hit in and they return. Getting in an "extra" hit by landing a bigger damage attack.
The concept of a perfect team that stands at the apex of the metagame might be a pretty lofty (and unattainable) ideal, but it's still something I try and work towards as well.
I've always felt - in jest - that I'd like nothing more than to see the queue filled with everyone running the exact same team (and everyone else having since quit in disgust). Then you can call pet battles 'solved' and pack it up.
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Tekulve2012
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Re: The Search For Equilibrium and The Perfect Team
Anubisath is not the only effective Sandstorm pet. The Living Sandling ( h/h) has the ability to tank in a huge way and debuff opponent's speed. Then you have the s/s Qiraji Guardling to stun and Sandstorm.
There are loads of ways to beat the fiendish imp and any other pet. We all try to stack the odds in our favour and I see your interest in the avoids and speedy heals of the H.Wisp but stuns/darkness/ sandstorm and speed debuffs can turn the tide enough so that your comp ends up with a loss sometimes.
Discodoggy's last Pet of the Month contest winning team had Trunks as an important cog. So its a pet worthy of notice. Good work and happy experimenting
There are loads of ways to beat the fiendish imp and any other pet. We all try to stack the odds in our favour and I see your interest in the avoids and speedy heals of the H.Wisp but stuns/darkness/ sandstorm and speed debuffs can turn the tide enough so that your comp ends up with a loss sometimes.
Discodoggy's last Pet of the Month contest winning team had Trunks as an important cog. So its a pet worthy of notice. Good work and happy experimenting
Re: The Search For Equilibrium and The Perfect Team
I'm a returning player, and just getting into the pets. It strikes me that this is basically more fun and complicated game of 'Rock-Paper-Scissors'. I appreciated the original post and reply, as I am interested in having a team of Rock-Paper-Scissors that effectively compliment each other... may not win 100%, but looking for the team that has types/abilities that compliment each other: i.e. Celestial Dragon and Arcane eye with the arcane winds, but their racial attk/def bonuses overlap on flying... I like the way the Dread hatchling, Feline Familiar, and the Emerald Whelp have good coverage in Racial attk/def bonuses, and good overlapping coverage in attack bonuses outside their normal racial attk bonus.
New at this, but welcome any advice/suggestions/recommendations.
New at this, but welcome any advice/suggestions/recommendations.
Re: The Search For Equilibrium and The Perfect Team
A bone serpent, ghastly kid, ss ore eater destroys this "perfect team". The ore eater is faster and immune to the dots for four rounds, and carries a dot/heal of his own. Nether gate against the ghastly kid opener faces your imp with a faceful of bone barrage from the bone serpent. The darkness counters the effectiveness of your heals. On the off chance you didn't gate the ghastly kid, he haunts for massive damage against your imp
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Virgilioar
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Re: The Search For Equilibrium and The Perfect Team
Wanted to continue this post and address some questions:
This was written before the [pet]Ore Eater[/pet], [pet]Graves[/pet], and an entire line of pets came out. That did prove to be an effective comp (sometimes) assuming they maneuvered around my haunt correctly which at the time of my original post had not even been hot fixed (it persisted even if applied after death). I like your observations, check out my new Forum: [url=http://www.warcraftpets.com/community/forum/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=15806]PVP Pet Battle - Catalog of Players in PVP Queue[/url] where I am trying to document the teams I consistently see in queue.Skavenged wrote:A bone serpent, ghastly kid, ss ore eater destroys this "perfect team". The ore eater is faster and immune to the dots for four rounds, and carries a dot/heal of his own. Nether gate against the ghastly kid opener faces your imp with a faceful of bone barrage from the bone serpent. The darkness counters the effectiveness of your heals. On the off chance you didn't gate the ghastly kid, he haunts for massive damage against your imp
Check out the [url=http://www.warcraftpets.com/community/forum/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=15806]PVP Pet Battle - Catalog of Players in PVP Queue[/url] along with some of the pets in my original post to get some ideas! Any questions are welcomed.Oagrintel wrote:I'm a returning player, and just getting into the pets. It strikes me that this is basically more fun and complicated game of 'Rock-Paper-Scissors'. I appreciated the original post and reply, as I am interested in having a team of Rock-Paper-Scissors that effectively compliment each other... may not win 100%, but looking for the team that has types/abilities that compliment each other: i.e. Celestial Dragon and Arcane eye with the arcane winds, but their racial attk/def bonuses overlap on flying... I like the way the Dread hatchling, Feline Familiar, and the Emerald Whelp have good coverage in Racial attk/def bonuses, and good overlapping coverage in attack bonuses outside their normal racial attack bonus.
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Logansfury
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Re: The Search For Equilibrium and The Perfect Team
Amazing post! Great info even a year later.
Id love to see the update of this in the graves/mpd dominated meta with the same breakdown and theorycrafting please!
Id love to see the update of this in the graves/mpd dominated meta with the same breakdown and theorycrafting please!
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Virgilioar
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Re: The Search For Equilibrium and The Perfect Team
In order to do this properly I am going to use my team and simply take you through a fight. Let's dive in!
First up, my team:
V Shade - [pet]Nightshade Sproutling[/pet]
Lash | Nature's Ward | Blinding Poison
V Rook - [pet]Fiendish Imp[/pet]
Burn | Immolation | Nether Gate
V Desecrate - [pet]Ghastly Kid[/pet]
Hoof | Ethereal | Haunt
Next, your proposition plus a bone serpent:
[pet]Graves[/pet]
Skull Toss | Bonestorm | Grave Destruction
[pet]Bone Serpent[/pet]
Bone Barrage | Call Darkness | Nocturnal Strike
[pet]Mechanical Pandaren Hatchling[/pet]
Breath | Thunderbolt | Decoy
Opener
[pet]Fiendish Imp[/pet] first no matter what. You need to get Immolation up as soon as possible to preemptively mitigate [pet]Graves[/pet]' AoE Damage and disable the Decoy.
Initial Weakness' to Expose
1): No Heals
2) Land a Haunt, [pet]Ghastly Kid[/pet] is a great finisher especially vs undead where Ethereal will dodge that extra round.
3) Match up your pets:
[pet]Bone Serpent[/pet] vs [pet]Nightshade Sproutling[/pet]
-Bone Barrage negated by Nature's Ward (not negated by Blinding Poison
-Darkness healing reduction negated Elemental Type
-Nocturnal Strike 100% accuracy negated by Elemental Type
[pet]Graves[/pet] vs [pet]Nightshade Sproutling[/pet] soft swap into [pet]Ghastly Kid[/pet]
-Blind with Blinding Poison exclusively
-Hoof to death
-If a swap, Haunt
[pet]Mechanical Pandaren Hatchling[/pet] vs [pet]Fiendish Imp[/pet] or [pet]Nightshade Sproutling[/pet]
-This is what you want to end up with in order to finish off this comp
-If [pet]Graves[/pet] is swapped in, you can always Nether Gate for the extra turn (makes a HUGE difference long run)
Mid-Game
The key here is to be very flexible and stay a step ahead. By Blinding into Hoof into Haunt into Gate back to Blind to avoid AOE on the [pet]Fiendish Imp[/pet] while mitigating with Nature's Ward before the Blind into swap you can wear out the [pet]Graves[/pet] and the [pet]Bone Serpent[/pet] before he can lay out enough AoE damage to bring down your [pet]Fiendish Imp[/pet]. The problem with this type of fight is that people tend to assume the worst and stop their self heals without realizing [pet]Graves[/pet]' abilities have cool downs in between which you can control his entrance with abilities like Nether Gate and avoid it with Blinding Poison. Additionally, short the opponent spamming Graves (side affect that the opponent will sacrifice him faster if you catch on in time), your [pet]Fiendish Imp[/pet]'s immolation + Human Type bonus can keep you relatively "healthy". Do not be afraid to take one full rotation (Grave Destruction into Bonestorm or vice versa) while you hammer down with Hoof and then get away from the Skull Toss with Haunt so you can begin to mitigate with your [pet]Nightshade Sproutling[/pet]. Even if he bluffs and continue's using Skull Toss, you can delay to give your [pet]Fiendish Imp[/pet] more "hits" in order to heal.
End-Game
Ideally, you will be able to get a kill on either the [pet]Bone Serpent[/pet], who was brought in to counter healing in the Mid-Game, or the [pet]Graves[/pet] after successfully avoiding his AoE Damage through Bling Poison and Nether Gate while slowly withering down (and maybe get a Nether Gate kill on either completely negating the Undead Type bonus. Either way, keep heals up just like raid fights, to the very end right through "adds". This furthers your position and seals the deal after the first kill.
Disclosure:
A lot of the timing has to do with knowing the moves available to each pet. I always recommend familiarizing yourself with the moves of any pet you do not recognize before engaging or developing any sort of strategy. It goes without saying that you must fully understand at least the basic mechanics of Type (Human heal, Undead immortality, etc), speed, and weather.
First up, my team:
V Shade - [pet]Nightshade Sproutling[/pet]
Lash | Nature's Ward | Blinding Poison
V Rook - [pet]Fiendish Imp[/pet]
Burn | Immolation | Nether Gate
V Desecrate - [pet]Ghastly Kid[/pet]
Hoof | Ethereal | Haunt
Next, your proposition plus a bone serpent:
[pet]Graves[/pet]
Skull Toss | Bonestorm | Grave Destruction
[pet]Bone Serpent[/pet]
Bone Barrage | Call Darkness | Nocturnal Strike
[pet]Mechanical Pandaren Hatchling[/pet]
Breath | Thunderbolt | Decoy
Opener
[pet]Fiendish Imp[/pet] first no matter what. You need to get Immolation up as soon as possible to preemptively mitigate [pet]Graves[/pet]' AoE Damage and disable the Decoy.
Initial Weakness' to Expose
1): No Heals
2) Land a Haunt, [pet]Ghastly Kid[/pet] is a great finisher especially vs undead where Ethereal will dodge that extra round.
3) Match up your pets:
[pet]Bone Serpent[/pet] vs [pet]Nightshade Sproutling[/pet]
-Bone Barrage negated by Nature's Ward (not negated by Blinding Poison
-Darkness healing reduction negated Elemental Type
-Nocturnal Strike 100% accuracy negated by Elemental Type
[pet]Graves[/pet] vs [pet]Nightshade Sproutling[/pet] soft swap into [pet]Ghastly Kid[/pet]
-Blind with Blinding Poison exclusively
-Hoof to death
-If a swap, Haunt
[pet]Mechanical Pandaren Hatchling[/pet] vs [pet]Fiendish Imp[/pet] or [pet]Nightshade Sproutling[/pet]
-This is what you want to end up with in order to finish off this comp
-If [pet]Graves[/pet] is swapped in, you can always Nether Gate for the extra turn (makes a HUGE difference long run)
Mid-Game
The key here is to be very flexible and stay a step ahead. By Blinding into Hoof into Haunt into Gate back to Blind to avoid AOE on the [pet]Fiendish Imp[/pet] while mitigating with Nature's Ward before the Blind into swap you can wear out the [pet]Graves[/pet] and the [pet]Bone Serpent[/pet] before he can lay out enough AoE damage to bring down your [pet]Fiendish Imp[/pet]. The problem with this type of fight is that people tend to assume the worst and stop their self heals without realizing [pet]Graves[/pet]' abilities have cool downs in between which you can control his entrance with abilities like Nether Gate and avoid it with Blinding Poison. Additionally, short the opponent spamming Graves (side affect that the opponent will sacrifice him faster if you catch on in time), your [pet]Fiendish Imp[/pet]'s immolation + Human Type bonus can keep you relatively "healthy". Do not be afraid to take one full rotation (Grave Destruction into Bonestorm or vice versa) while you hammer down with Hoof and then get away from the Skull Toss with Haunt so you can begin to mitigate with your [pet]Nightshade Sproutling[/pet]. Even if he bluffs and continue's using Skull Toss, you can delay to give your [pet]Fiendish Imp[/pet] more "hits" in order to heal.
End-Game
Ideally, you will be able to get a kill on either the [pet]Bone Serpent[/pet], who was brought in to counter healing in the Mid-Game, or the [pet]Graves[/pet] after successfully avoiding his AoE Damage through Bling Poison and Nether Gate while slowly withering down (and maybe get a Nether Gate kill on either completely negating the Undead Type bonus. Either way, keep heals up just like raid fights, to the very end right through "adds". This furthers your position and seals the deal after the first kill.
Disclosure:
A lot of the timing has to do with knowing the moves available to each pet. I always recommend familiarizing yourself with the moves of any pet you do not recognize before engaging or developing any sort of strategy. It goes without saying that you must fully understand at least the basic mechanics of Type (Human heal, Undead immortality, etc), speed, and weather.
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Virgilioar
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Re: The Search For Equilibrium and The Perfect Team
I actually tried that a couple times with the [pet]Unborn Val'kyr[/pet] as a variant. to up my overall damage and with the [pet]Enchanted Broom[/pet] to lower my vulnerability to against other Graves. What I like most about the comp I am running now is that even though it is not a 100% win ratio it brings an edge into the mix that allows you to win every time if you play it right. That's to say with tools like Blinding Poison and Nether Gate + self-heals on your "control" pets you can out-maneuver pretty much anyone else. That's not to say people will not catch on, and so ensues a series of bluffs and force swaps translating into the skill behind the match. I guess that makes it the most skill dependent team (assuming skill means correctly predicting your opponents.
When facing the team you proposed my opener will be the [pet]Fiendish Imp[/pet] to get the Immolation ticking.I would probably try to get rid of the [pet]Graves[/pet] as fast as possibleIf; it is out doing damage, my [pet]Ghastly Kid[/pet] will be Hoofing away. The mid game will be all about how many times I prevent [pet]Graves[/pet] from getting a full rotation off. The end game sees me finish the Graves and handle the [pet]Ghastly Kid[/pet] with my [pet]Nightshade Sproutling[/pet], but again, it is all very dependent on how well I am able to mitigate [pet]Graves[/pet] and predict your swaps. The nice thing about facing [pet]Graves[/pet] is the mechanical nature behind his damage. It is pretty easy to read "what comes next" when he comes into the fold so it's really all about trying to stay a couple moves ahead.
As for the most OP team, this is as close as I have come:
V Krusty
[pet]Magical Crawdad[/pet]
Snap - Shell Shield - Wish
V Nordi
[pet]Blossoming Ancient[/pet]
Iron Bark - Photosynthesis - Sunlight
V Lilo
[pet]Graves[/pet]
Skull Toss - Bonestorm - Grave Destruction
I do not want to imply it can't be beat, but if it's played right it can't be beat, so yea, that's what I want to imply.. This involves seeing sunlight as a mid-game heal boost as oppose to an end game top off especially versus darkness comps which means you need to know when to heal and when to damage. That though is an entirely different conversation.
When facing the team you proposed my opener will be the [pet]Fiendish Imp[/pet] to get the Immolation ticking.I would probably try to get rid of the [pet]Graves[/pet] as fast as possibleIf; it is out doing damage, my [pet]Ghastly Kid[/pet] will be Hoofing away. The mid game will be all about how many times I prevent [pet]Graves[/pet] from getting a full rotation off. The end game sees me finish the Graves and handle the [pet]Ghastly Kid[/pet] with my [pet]Nightshade Sproutling[/pet], but again, it is all very dependent on how well I am able to mitigate [pet]Graves[/pet] and predict your swaps. The nice thing about facing [pet]Graves[/pet] is the mechanical nature behind his damage. It is pretty easy to read "what comes next" when he comes into the fold so it's really all about trying to stay a couple moves ahead.
As for the most OP team, this is as close as I have come:
V Krusty
[pet]Magical Crawdad[/pet]
Snap - Shell Shield - Wish
V Nordi
[pet]Blossoming Ancient[/pet]
Iron Bark - Photosynthesis - Sunlight
V Lilo
[pet]Graves[/pet]
Skull Toss - Bonestorm - Grave Destruction
I do not want to imply it can't be beat, but if it's played right it can't be beat, so yea, that's what I want to imply.. This involves seeing sunlight as a mid-game heal boost as oppose to an end game top off especially versus darkness comps which means you need to know when to heal and when to damage. That though is an entirely different conversation.
Last edited by Virgilioar on May 20th, 2016, 4:36 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Re: The Search For Equilibrium and The Perfect Team
Virgilioar, I just want to say that I admire your approach. Have you ever considered brute-forcing solutions?
I took your Equilibrium team into the queue today, and went 4-1. I lost to Ghastly Kid + Fiendish Imp + Stormwing in a good match in which my opponent won the head games.
I'm pretty comfortable with it, since it shares two pets with Disco's Done Did Kid, which I played quite a bit at one point. Loving the heal on the Sproutling in place of the usual Darkness.
Thanks for the team, and especially for the analysis.
I took your Equilibrium team into the queue today, and went 4-1. I lost to Ghastly Kid + Fiendish Imp + Stormwing in a good match in which my opponent won the head games.
I'm pretty comfortable with it, since it shares two pets with Disco's Done Did Kid, which I played quite a bit at one point. Loving the heal on the Sproutling in place of the usual Darkness.
Thanks for the team, and especially for the analysis.
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Virgilioar
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Re: The Search For Equilibrium and The Perfect Team
Thank you for the compliments, they are much appreciated!Gráinne wrote:Virgilioar, I just want to say that I admire your approach. Have you ever considered brute-forcing solutions?
I took your Equilibrium team into the queue today, and went 4-1. I lost to Ghastly Kid + Fiendish Imp + Stormwing in a good match in which my opponent won the head games.
I'm pretty comfortable with it, since it shares two pets with Disco's Done Did Kid, which I played quite a bit at one point. Loving the heal on the Sproutling in place of the usual Darkness.
Thanks for the team, and especially for the analysis.
In that fight try to take out the enemy [pet]Ghastly Kid[/pet] without sacrificing HP. Remember, if your [pet]Nightshade Sprouting[/pet] takes damage and heals it after using [pet]Blind[/pet] to swap out, he technically took no damage. Additionally, remember that any damage you do to Storming and Ghastly Kid (assuming he is not specced into [pet]Consume Magic[/pet] is "permanent", so if you can take either of those out while not letting your Ghastly Kid take damage, you technically take 0 damage. Basically you do this by forcing out [pet]Stormwing[/pet] with Fiendish Imp and managing enemy [pet]Ghastly Kid[/pet] with [pet]Nightshade Sproutling[/pet].
Blunt Force Trauma is problematic mainly because:
1) Magic Type Bonus
2) There is no "one-shot" ability. All of them require at least two moves and are easily avoidable ([pet]Chrominius[/pet] {which technically requires 4}) or 3 moves and can be seen coming from a mile away ([pet]Iron Starlette[/pet]). This means a 2 move heal like Wish will counter it, not to mention a Nether Gate, Dodge,etc.
This makes Blunt Force Trauma highly situational. You CAN go for AoE Blunt Force Trauma, but then you expose yourself to DoT Counters ([pet]Anubisath Idol[/pet], for example). I say find a golden mean: an AoE Team with a Blunt Force Trauma "finisher" that does high damage maybe even with a one shot option. Either way these moves can be seen coming from far away and any good trainer will have a contingency plan for these situations. If you want to try a really fun one get an [pet]Enchanted Broom[/pet], a [pet]Murkalot[/pet], and an [pet]Unborn Val'kyr[/pet]. Curse of Doom, Sweep, Righteous Inspiration, Haunt. You will get there jajaja...
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Logansfury
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Re: The Search For Equilibrium and The Perfect Team
OK this post I cant thank you enough for. I shelled out $250.00 USD for my murkalot on eBay and have only been able to find two strong suggestions for teams featuring him in over 6 months of webhunting. His fun arcane storm team is absolutely helpless against the meta variants and making him part of a meta team becomes an rng fest against another meta team.Virgilioar wrote:If you want to try a really fun one get an [pet]Enchanted Broom[/pet], a [pet]Murkalot[/pet], and an [pet]Unborn Val'kyr[/pet]. Curse of Doom, Sweep, Righteous Inspiration, Haunt. You will get there jajaja...
I cannot wait to field this team. Please, do you have any other Murkalot team comps that can be competitive in the current meta?
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Logansfury
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Re: The Search For Equilibrium and The Perfect Team
first outing. followed the suggested move order with variations due to liftoff so hits would land.
Got absolutely flattened by a team of flat-tooth calf, sky-bo and landshark >.<
Got absolutely flattened by a team of flat-tooth calf, sky-bo and landshark >.<
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Virgilioar
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Re: The Search For Equilibrium and The Perfect Team
The [pet]Murkalot[/pet] team listed above is for fun. To play it competitively, you can't expect to land that rotation every time. The truth is that thanks to the existence of Graves and Weebomination combined the many avoidance abilities, there sadly really is no fully competitive [pet]Murkalot[/pet] team composition. There are some fun things you can try though like:Logansfury wrote:first outing. followed the suggested move order with variations due to liftoff so hits would land.
Got absolutely flattened by a team of flat-tooth calf, sky-bo and landshark >.<
[pet]Blackfuse Bombling[/pet]
[pet]Murkalot[/pet]
[pet]Graves[/pet]
notes: Righteous Inspiration into Armageddon. It's just crazy. This team can get hammered by a single [pet]Graves[/pet] though so impractical in the long run.
[pet]Trunks[/pet]
[pet]Murkalot[/pet]
[pet]Graves[/pet]
notes: Play [pet]Trunks[/pet] with Smash, Ethereal, Avalanche. You can hammer out a perfect rotation with Righteous Inspiration into Grave Destruction, Bonestorm, Swap to [pet]Trunks[/pet], Avalanche, Swap back to [pet]Graves[/pet], Bonestorm, Grave Destruction for so much damage you basically take out any pet under 1400hp.The other option is play a full rotation of Graves (Bonestorm, Skull Toss, Grave Destruction, Skull Toss, Bonestorm hopefully killing one of the enemy pets. Then you Righteous Inspiration into an Avalanche for a whopping 716 damage to each of the two remaining pets.
[pet]Trunks[/pet]
[pet]Murkalot[/pet]
[pet]Frostwolf Ghostpup[/pet]
notes: Here play trunks with Moonfire and heal off of it. Try to get a kill and THEN Righteous Inspiration into Avalanche.
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Logansfury
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Re: The Search For Equilibrium and The Perfect Team
Thank you very much for the additional options. I dont know what it is about Murkalot but I find myself wanting to succeed with him as a battle pet more than with any of my stable - and he is far and away the most common companion summoned to my chars sides as they navigate the gameworld.
I have no aversion to teaming him with graves or any power or top tier pet for success, ill be going thru all the combos youve suggested here heavily over the next few days to build familiarity with each teams synergy and develop effective play for all of them.
Thank you again for the generous sharing of experience
I have no aversion to teaming him with graves or any power or top tier pet for success, ill be going thru all the combos youve suggested here heavily over the next few days to build familiarity with each teams synergy and develop effective play for all of them.
Thank you again for the generous sharing of experience
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Virgilioar
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Re: The Search For Equilibrium and The Perfect Team
It's my pleasure and I get you; apart from paying the $250 USD as well, my ideal aesthetic team would be something like:Logansfury wrote:Thank you very much for the additional options. I dont know what it is about Murkalot but I find myself wanting to succeed with him as a battle pet more than with any of my stable - and he is far and away the most common companion summoned to my chars sides as they navigate the gameworld.
I have no aversion to teaming him with graves or any power or top tier pet for success, ill be going thru all the combos youve suggested here heavily over the next few days to build familiarity with each teams synergy and develop effective play for all of them.
Thank you again for the generous sharing of experience
[pet]Phoenix Hatchling[/pet] - [pet]Murkalot[/pet] - [pet]Unborn Val'kyr[/pet]
It's a terrible composition though but wow does it look good!
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Logansfury
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Re: The Search For Equilibrium and The Perfect Team
Pet groups like these are what have made me wish many times that we could be followed by our full 3 man teams rather than a single companionVirgilioar wrote:It's my pleasure and I get you; apart from paying the $250 USD as well, my ideal aesthetic team would be something like:
[pet]Phoenix Hatchling[/pet] - [pet]Murkalot[/pet] - [pet]Unborn Val'kyr[/pet]
It's a terrible composition though but wow does it look good!