Hi All,
I've noticed a lot on my meta these days that pet battling PvP seems a lot more balanced with no single teams you have to be crushed by over and over again. You do of course see more of the pets designated "Tier 1/2" on popular websites but no awful Graves-Weebom-Weebom combos or endless Terroclaws fight after fight like it used to be
Do you guys think that this is because the most OP pets/combo's have now all been nerfed into something like balance or some other reason? I though it maybe indicated a growing Pet Battle player base with only limited online resources to steer new battlers to the most OP pets/teams? I don't know if there is a growing player base of course, though the que keeps popping pretty fast even at the most unlikely times of the day or night.
Thoughts?
Pet Battles feeling quite balanced?
Re: Pet Battles feeling quite balanced?
Maybe you should avoid the B-word in case someone comes hunting. 
People can certainly point out individual pets that are imba. TCS and Hermit were deliberately engineered to be overpowered. I have no idea why. I wish I had an insight into their reasons.
Still, overall I agree with you. While I haven't PvPed much in BfA, my sense is that the meta is much healthier than it was in Legion, which was in turn much healthier than it was in the latter half of WoD.
The devs did a very nice job with taking off the top of the Legion meta in the nerfs, leaving BS and TC still usable, though not top tier, and Clonedance still viable ... I was afraid they had overnerfed that, but it's still in the mix.
People can certainly point out individual pets that are imba. TCS and Hermit were deliberately engineered to be overpowered. I have no idea why. I wish I had an insight into their reasons.
Still, overall I agree with you. While I haven't PvPed much in BfA, my sense is that the meta is much healthier than it was in Legion, which was in turn much healthier than it was in the latter half of WoD.
The devs did a very nice job with taking off the top of the Legion meta in the nerfs, leaving BS and TC still usable, though not top tier, and Clonedance still viable ... I was afraid they had overnerfed that, but it's still in the mix.
Re: Pet Battles feeling quite balanced?
Yep the Meta is awesome Grainne 
Yesterday just for fun I tried an S/S Rabbit, A P/S Adder and an H/B Frog and got 2 wins out of 4 games! That would have been unthinkable in the WOD meta. I mean I know Rabbits are just fine and dandy but you don't see many bog standard snakes and frogs in PvP for a damn good reason lol. However they seem to hold their own in todays meta just fine. I think for the first time in a long time you really can play any pet you like without the need to carry them with a broken Tier 0 team mate.
Yesterday just for fun I tried an S/S Rabbit, A P/S Adder and an H/B Frog and got 2 wins out of 4 games! That would have been unthinkable in the WOD meta. I mean I know Rabbits are just fine and dandy but you don't see many bog standard snakes and frogs in PvP for a damn good reason lol. However they seem to hold their own in todays meta just fine. I think for the first time in a long time you really can play any pet you like without the need to carry them with a broken Tier 0 team mate.
Re: Pet Battles feeling quite balanced?
So with this encouragment, I popped back into the queue on this fine Sunday morning (in Pandaria, levelling a couple of pets) and ran into ... double-TCS.
This is why we can't have nice things.
This is why we can't have nice things.
Re: Pet Battles feeling quite balanced?
A lot of it depends on what server/group you are in.
Last week I queued to a consistent diet of triple Nexus whelplings or triple Frostfur Rats. Not too hard if you are ready for them, but not much fun for average teams.
Last night I went to a low pop server and ran into a bunch of different teams. Part of this is due to the sign of the critter week, but Mr Triple is still lurking on my server.
Last week I queued to a consistent diet of triple Nexus whelplings or triple Frostfur Rats. Not too hard if you are ready for them, but not much fun for average teams.
Last night I went to a low pop server and ran into a bunch of different teams. Part of this is due to the sign of the critter week, but Mr Triple is still lurking on my server.
Re: Pet Battles feeling quite balanced?
I'd never say that the overall meta is balanced right now. There's too many glaring issues with overbudget pets, overbudget abilities, overpowered weather types, overpowered abilities, lack of consistency between abilities and some pets that need stat or abilities changing e.g Emperor Crab and Fel Afflicted Skyfin.
It does depend like has already been said on your on meta group as to what you will face. Some people might be lucky I know I face tier teams about half the time which is pretty lousy as it gives me 2 outcomes essentially win half the games at a face roll then out play against someone who plays really badly with an Op team the other half and hope theyre team can't carry them.
It does depend like has already been said on your on meta group as to what you will face. Some people might be lucky I know I face tier teams about half the time which is pretty lousy as it gives me 2 outcomes essentially win half the games at a face roll then out play against someone who plays really badly with an Op team the other half and hope theyre team can't carry them.
Re: Pet Battles feeling quite balanced?
See what happens when you say the B-word? 
Once more unto the breach, dear friends, once more!
I think a lot of the problem comes from the ambiguity in the word "balance". I have a long-standing challenge, for anyone who believes in it: balance 10 random pets, given the same tools the devs have - breed, base stats, moveset. (I don't want to think about what they've done with a couple of mutant outliers in base stats recently, but I suppose that's fair game now too.)
Here, thanks to the RAND() function, I present a list:
Little Fawn
Rabid Nut Varmint 5000
Direhorn Runt
Servant of Demidos
Bleakwater Jelly
Coastal Sandpiper
Mechanical Pandaren Dragonling
Snarly
Bloodbrood Whelpling
Scabby
Balance those.
I think that is enough to show is that absolute balance is impossible without reducing every pet to essentially the same moveset, which would destroy the game.
And I absolutely don't want to see some rolling-around kind of "balance" in which something is buffed to the skies in one patch and then nerfed to oblivion in the next, the kind of trickery they do to "keep the game fresh" with specs in WoW.
For PvE, the game is fine. Balance is not important. And the devs must not wake that sleeping dog to let the PvP tail wag it.
For PvP, the problem always seems to be a handful of pets that are i) OP and II) easy to use. The problem is not even that they are OP, per se, so much as it is that they are then overused. They did a good job or trimming off the top of the meta at the end of Legion, and then turned right around and inserted deliberately overbudgeted pets like TCS and Hermit, undoing all their good work. This is what I don't understand.
Of course, since there will always be a group of pets that are better than others for PvP, the formation of such a meta is inevitable, but they could reduce the gap.
Or, as I have suggested before, give us a mechanism and a reason to play a wider variety of pets.
Once more unto the breach, dear friends, once more!
I think a lot of the problem comes from the ambiguity in the word "balance". I have a long-standing challenge, for anyone who believes in it: balance 10 random pets, given the same tools the devs have - breed, base stats, moveset. (I don't want to think about what they've done with a couple of mutant outliers in base stats recently, but I suppose that's fair game now too.)
Here, thanks to the RAND() function, I present a list:
Little Fawn
Rabid Nut Varmint 5000
Direhorn Runt
Servant of Demidos
Bleakwater Jelly
Coastal Sandpiper
Mechanical Pandaren Dragonling
Snarly
Bloodbrood Whelpling
Scabby
Balance those.
I think that is enough to show is that absolute balance is impossible without reducing every pet to essentially the same moveset, which would destroy the game.
And I absolutely don't want to see some rolling-around kind of "balance" in which something is buffed to the skies in one patch and then nerfed to oblivion in the next, the kind of trickery they do to "keep the game fresh" with specs in WoW.
For PvE, the game is fine. Balance is not important. And the devs must not wake that sleeping dog to let the PvP tail wag it.
For PvP, the problem always seems to be a handful of pets that are i) OP and II) easy to use. The problem is not even that they are OP, per se, so much as it is that they are then overused. They did a good job or trimming off the top of the meta at the end of Legion, and then turned right around and inserted deliberately overbudgeted pets like TCS and Hermit, undoing all their good work. This is what I don't understand.
Of course, since there will always be a group of pets that are better than others for PvP, the formation of such a meta is inevitable, but they could reduce the gap.
Or, as I have suggested before, give us a mechanism and a reason to play a wider variety of pets.
Re: Pet Battles feeling quite balanced?
I'm sorry that you don't understand how balancing would work Grainne and begin to think you troll most posts about PVP due to a bias or an agenda.
Balancing is not having all pets equal for PVP even 10% would be fine, they barely manage 2-3% as even viable let alone equal. I don't think they are far away from this either but keep messing it up for some unknown reason or intentionally not reaching this.
It is ensuring that when there are pets or abilities that are too good they are nerfed to an appropriate level. Straight away things like Twilight Meteorite or Jar of Smelly Liquid should have been nerfed as they were mistakes.
Ironically your list of 10 pets is more balanced than the meta at present so if that was the extent of the problem I'd be over the moon.
I think one or 2 targeted nerfs where appropriate in a patch would be fine. An example would be to something like the Hermit Crabs stat line, no harm in nerfing this to something less game breaking do the Boghopper whilst they're at it.
As you have said balance isn't important for PVE the problem pets barely overlap I don't think many trainer fights rely on the Fel Afflicted Skyfin do they or a Magma Trap? It's more of trying to make an issue out of nothing. I know the Teroclaw nerf affected both but it was overused to such an extent in each content it had it coming.
When a dominant pet appears in PVP just see why and balance it by buffs or nerfs.
Even with a Family Brawler type mechanic once the bulk of playerbase complete them it's a lousy experience for both players an easy win for one a bad loss for the other. A handicapped team running into one that isn't will most likely lose the match up before its begun.
Balancing is not having all pets equal for PVP even 10% would be fine, they barely manage 2-3% as even viable let alone equal. I don't think they are far away from this either but keep messing it up for some unknown reason or intentionally not reaching this.
It is ensuring that when there are pets or abilities that are too good they are nerfed to an appropriate level. Straight away things like Twilight Meteorite or Jar of Smelly Liquid should have been nerfed as they were mistakes.
Ironically your list of 10 pets is more balanced than the meta at present so if that was the extent of the problem I'd be over the moon.
I think one or 2 targeted nerfs where appropriate in a patch would be fine. An example would be to something like the Hermit Crabs stat line, no harm in nerfing this to something less game breaking do the Boghopper whilst they're at it.
As you have said balance isn't important for PVE the problem pets barely overlap I don't think many trainer fights rely on the Fel Afflicted Skyfin do they or a Magma Trap? It's more of trying to make an issue out of nothing. I know the Teroclaw nerf affected both but it was overused to such an extent in each content it had it coming.
When a dominant pet appears in PVP just see why and balance it by buffs or nerfs.
Even with a Family Brawler type mechanic once the bulk of playerbase complete them it's a lousy experience for both players an easy win for one a bad loss for the other. A handicapped team running into one that isn't will most likely lose the match up before its begun.
Re: Pet Battles feeling quite balanced?
No, not trolling even a little.
When someone says "balance pets", I assume they mean balance pets. All pets.
I don't think that's what you mean. I think you mean "Have 50 or so pets that are good for PvP without having 4 or 5 that are much better. (And the other 1000 pets don't matter at all.)"
And that's why I wanted to draw attention to the ambiguity in the phrase.
And yes, even as I ran the spreadsheet, I was conscious that the random function had not picked any standout highs or lows. That's RNG for you!
I think I'm less interested in balance than I am in variety. Anyone can load up an über-team if they really want to these days; the problem is the dreariness of seeing the same faces over and over. I've given up on balance as a possible solution to uniformity.
When someone says "balance pets", I assume they mean balance pets. All pets.
I don't think that's what you mean. I think you mean "Have 50 or so pets that are good for PvP without having 4 or 5 that are much better. (And the other 1000 pets don't matter at all.)"
And that's why I wanted to draw attention to the ambiguity in the phrase.
And yes, even as I ran the spreadsheet, I was conscious that the random function had not picked any standout highs or lows. That's RNG for you!
I think I'm less interested in balance than I am in variety. Anyone can load up an über-team if they really want to these days; the problem is the dreariness of seeing the same faces over and over. I've given up on balance as a possible solution to uniformity.