A year after Legion Pet Battle Tuning. Thoughts?

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Re: A year after Legion Pet Battle Tuning. Thoughts?

Post by Flohsakk » July 21st, 2017, 9:02 am

Spinning wrote:Not really:
Surge, deflection, ethereal, when elleks fly and smoke bomb get +16250 speed modifier to the current speed of the pet
Charge, trihorne charge, love potion, restoration, etc. get + 1625

Edit: this numbers are correct only on level 25s, on lower levels the modifier is different.
Formula is:

PriorityModifier x PetLevel x QualityModifier x SpeedModifier + ( Speed x SpeedModifier )

Examples:
Anubisath Idol (Level 3 Speed 29 Rare) => 500 x 3 x 1.3 x 1.0 + ( 29 x 1.0) => 1979
Charge Pet (Level 25 Speed 260 Rare) => 50 x 25 x 1.3 x 1.0 + ( 260 x 1.0 ) => 1885

So you see a level 3 Anubisath Idol is capable of Deflecting a Charge of a level 25 pet ;)
  • Spinning already mentioned we have 2 Priority modifiers, they are 50 and 500
  • QualityModifier is 1.0 to 1.5 (Poor to Legendary; Rare is 1.3)
  • SpeedModifier is 1.0 when you don't have bonuses active like Flying passive (1.5) or the ones from Righteous Inspiration or Leap (2.0) etc.
No idea why Devs choose one or another factor for a priority move. Would make more sense if all attacks/heals would use 50 and all defensive skills 500 (so Surge would be the only one that has to be changed).
Another thing are skills like Belly Slide or Righteous Inspiration - right now in the UI we don't see any speed change of pets using these abilities, so I assume Sir Murkeston would go first vs. Murkalot cause he's faster and for two opponents using Belly Slide (with Blizzard active) the faster one will go first with his "priority move".

Here's a list again:

Priority Modifier 50:
  • Blindstrike
  • Charge
  • Love Potion
  • Quick Attack
  • Restoration
  • Trihorne Charge
Priority Modifier 500:
  • Deflection
  • Ethereal
  • Smoke Bomb
  • Surge
  • When Elekks Fly

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Re: A year after Legion Pet Battle Tuning. Thoughts?

Post by Rosqo » July 21st, 2017, 9:14 am

@ drudatz
Bend time does have an effect when the drake dies at present it causes a one round cooldown on every ability . That's even if it wouldn't usually have a cooldown. It's not working as intended. Try it out and you'll see or watch the link someone put of my video.

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Re: A year after Legion Pet Battle Tuning. Thoughts?

Post by Drlambda » July 21st, 2017, 9:43 am

I actually wrote a page-long pamphlet, but after taking a short break and eating something, i decided to rewrite it because it sounded too much like i am attacking somebody, which was never my intention.

Most games have both a casual and a competitive aspect, and pet battling doesn't differ from that. From what i've learned from competitivly playing trading card games for a very long time, these two aspects are usually exclusive and don't want the same things. The competitive side wants a clearly-defined, narrow metagame and win by making the best decision within those parameters, and the casual side wants to play with their favorite part of the game without always losing, or what you would call a very wide metagame where all decisions are kinda viable. This isn't an ideal situation for the competitive player, as a wide metagame makes it both hard to be prepared and makes the matchup more important than outplaying your opponent.
Game developers usually want to carry to both sides of the argument in some way, in this example by allowing pets to be strong, but at the same time balanced enough that a casual player has a low but viable chance to win against them without going out of his way to do so (Most card games do this by making either the ressource management or the outcome of playing a card a bit RNG based, which is not an option in pet battling.) Another visible problem of pet battling is that Blizzard has been notoriously bad at keeping the casual and competitive folk apart in most of their games, which means that in many cases the competitive aspect usually wins out - either because the casuals adapt or go away. This is a problem in its own right, as the casuals usually are the bulk of the players and those that usually put the money into the game (Money translates to game time freely in any part of WoW.) This means that the playerbase of any game that is obviously competitive start to dwindle with time, as casual players are pushed out and competitives slowly lose interest, until the time it takes to find an opponent makes even the most die-hard fans stopping to play the game.

Drudatz, i understand where your arguments are coming from, and i respect them, but having pets that are so oppressively dominant against the average pet like Teroclaw or BS are directly contraproductive to creating a bigger playerbase which would make pet battling more fun and enjoyable for those that already are playing the game. I don't want every pet in the game to be equally viable, there are obviously pets without any redeeming qualities like basic snakes or Core Hound Pup (it takes a sadistic mind to put a Bunny moveset on a pet with 211 speed) and building teams and finding out which pets are bad is half the fun, but i still think that those who tower over the top and especially those that completely dominate the average pets should be brought in line.

Yes, things like Iron Starlette are very scary in the hand of a competent player, but i'm pretty sure that i could easily get a winrate of over 60-70% with a 3 Bone Serpent team, pushing "123" at the beginning of every turn literally without looking at the screen. This is the worst thing about the Bone Serpent - you don't have to be competent in any way to be really successful with it, and that should even scare away competitive players. And even taking these aspects into consideration, Starlette still has way more counters than BS and gets countered by three full families of pets in some way depending on the breed.

About the Nexus Whelplings, i want to say that i'm pretty sure that whoever is bringing triple Whelplings into the queue doesn't actually enjoy the game but feels compelled to play it for rewards. I'd say the same about anyone bringing multiple Bone Serpents. Comparing the two is not really fair though. Nexus Whelpling is much easier to kill, mostly because it doesn't get two free attacks, is slower than the average pet (The fastest one is only a bit faster than most P/P pets) and has his main attacks all within the same family. Each of these arguments make it way fairer than BS, although it is still a lazy design that doesn't force the user to make any kind of decision himself, so i'm not a fan of that either.

Now, there are a few small points i want to address before finishing my post:
Drudatz wrote:
Gráinne wrote:- Is Bend Time broken? Maybe I misunderstand, but I think it's OK?
The effect not working when the drake is dead sounds more like expected (ie like Apocalypse not hitting when the caster is dead)
If that is the case, i'd still say that they should change the text to reflect that. I don't want to guess the percentage of players that know that Apocalypse misses if the caster is dead, but i'm sure that it is very very low. This becomes way more problematic with an ability that is as thought-provoking as Bend Time.
Also, if it is the expected behavior, it turns the ability from a build-around-me ability into a completely unviable one, so i hope it isn't.
Drudatz wrote:
Drlambda wrote:4. Lower the speed of the S/S Wicked Soul to 325.
I dont see a reason for that either.
I think i made pretty good arguments why i think it should be this way in my answer to Gráinne, but i'd love to hear your opinion on that. I just don't think that the drawbacks of a really high-speed Haunt are enough for all the stuff it does. I know Haunt is a powerful fan-favorite, but i think if you look at it objectively, you'll see that it is over-the-top.
Drudatz wrote:dunno what you play but a BS Team doesnt do much against a sunlight team. Especially with the hit chance of NS in Darkness being only 40% in darkness.
First of all, i'm usually not a person that plays a lot of Darkness teams, the thought of using ressources to take away ressources from my opponent to force both of us into a battle of feast VS famine has never sounded very entertaining for me in any game. That being said, considering an S/S serpent, i don't think that dealing an average of over 400 damage for 3 turns while changing the weather (taking away all "overheal" not included in the damage numbers) sounds like "not doing much." Of course the fact that most good Sunny Day users are elementals makes Nocturnal Strike way worse, but i'd still say that BS is pretty good there. Add to that the fact that with BS being where it currently is, the number of dedicated Darkness teams is probably a lot higher than it would be without BS, and full Darkness teams will always be a good counter to Sunny Day.
And like i said, this is the only positive aspect of having BS right now in my opinion, and that's only because Sunny Day is problematic as well (and this time only partially because of it's sheer power, but more because it works in a way that enforces 30-minute-stalemates - and i don't think anyone is genuinely enjoying those.)
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Re: A year after Legion Pet Battle Tuning. Thoughts?

Post by Vakeetah » July 21st, 2017, 1:19 pm

Apologies for chopping the post, didn't want to cause a quote-pyramid :P
Drlambda wrote:[On [ability]Bend Time[/ability]]
If that is the case, i'd still say that they should change the text to reflect that. I don't want to guess the percentage of players that know that Apocalypse misses if the caster is dead, but i'm sure that it is very very low. This becomes way more problematic with an ability that is as thought-provoking as Bend Time.
Also, if it is the expected behavior, it turns the ability from a build-around-me ability into a completely unviable one, so i hope it isn't.
Personally, rather than adding it to the tooltip, I'd say they should simply make Bend Time (and Apocalypse) stick through death. I get that this may make Apocalypse "Fire and Forget" in a way, but with its massive delay, and being subject to missing, passives, and avoidance/block effects, it's not a huge deal in terms of balance, and would do wonders in terms of clarity.

Well, either that, or remove the buff if the caster dies. Makes no sense for it to stick if it won't do anything, right? :)
Drlambda wrote:[On lowering the speed of Wicked Soul to 325.]
I think i made pretty good arguments why i think it should be this way in my answer to Gráinne, but i'd love to hear your opinion on that. I just don't think that the drawbacks of a really high-speed Haunt are enough for all the stuff it does. I know Haunt is a powerful fan-favorite, but i think if you look at it objectively, you'll see that it is over-the-top.
I'd say the problem is [ability]Haunt[/ability] itself, being an all-in-one avoidance/swap/damage move. I'm not sure how to fix it, but it's definitely not nerfing Soul's speed. Fast undeads are already extremely rare, and it's fun to have them around for variety - so it'd be better to act over the root cause, Haunt, rather than a band-aid Speed nerf (325 being insufficient to stop it from going first most of the time). It could also be an idea to replace Haunt with something else, as unpopular as this idea is.
Drlambda wrote:[On Bone Serpents and Darkness]
First of all, i'm usually not a person that plays a lot of Darkness teams, the thought of using ressources to take away ressources from my opponent to force both of us into a battle of feast VS famine has never sounded very entertaining for me in any game. That being said, considering an S/S serpent, i don't think that dealing an average of over 400 damage for 3 turns while changing the weather (taking away all "overheal" not included in the damage numbers) sounds like "not doing much." Of course the fact that most good Sunny Day users are elementals makes Nocturnal Strike way worse, but i'd still say that BS is pretty good there. Add to that the fact that with BS being where it currently is, the number of dedicated Darkness teams is probably a lot higher than it would be without BS, and full Darkness teams will always be a good counter to Sunny Day.
And like i said, this is the only positive aspect of having BS right now in my opinion, and that's only because Sunny Day is problematic as well (and this time only partially because of it's sheer power, but more because it works in a way that enforces 30-minute-stalemates - and i don't think anyone is genuinely enjoying those.)
I'm going to agree that Darkness is possibly too impactful and that so is its opposite, Sunlight.

The underlying problem here is most likely healing itself, and how its power ends up making both Sunlight and Darkness too strong in relative terms; more so with outliers such as [ability]Photosynthesis[/ability] and [ability]Wish[/ability]. This warrants a completely separate discussion, though!
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Re: A year after Legion Pet Battle Tuning. Thoughts?

Post by Drudatz » July 21st, 2017, 4:54 pm

Drlambda wrote:I understand where your arguments are coming from, and i respect them, but having pets that are so oppressively dominant against the average pet like Teroclaw or BS are directly contraproductive to creating a bigger playerbase which would make pet battling more fun and enjoyable for those that already are playing the game.
Pvp in unbalanced games like wow is and will always be a niche game because 98% of "gamers" want a good reward for playing.
Drlambda wrote:About the Nexus Whelplings, i want to say that i'm pretty sure that whoever is bringing triple Whelplings into the queue doesn't actually enjoy the game but feels compelled to play it for rewards. I'd say the same about anyone bringing multiple Bone Serpents. Comparing the two is not really fair though.
Yes, its fair to compare them - same goes for tripple Iron Starlet - people hoping for easy wins and NONE of these 3 is HARD to kill or does more dmg then the other. (Dont get me wrong since start I am strongly against tripplets of ANY kind, thus why I say every 9 pet abilities on a team have to be DIFFERENT)
Drlambda wrote:Now, there are a few small points i want to address before finishing my post:
Drudatz wrote:
Gráinne wrote:Is Bend Time broken?
The effect not working when the drake is dead sounds more like ie like Apocalypse not hitting when the caster is dead)
If that is the case, i'd still say that they should change the text to reflect that. I don't want to guess the percentage of players that know that Apocalypse misses if the caster is dead, but i'm sure that it is very very low. This becomes way more problematic with an ability that is as thought-provoking as Bend Time.
Apart from the fact that the space for the tooltip is limit that is what experience is for. Because continuing your complain about having stated on the tooltip of Apocalypse not hitting when dead you would also have to change Haunts Tooltip as you cant Haunt on the last undead round.

(ps: is it not common sense that Apocalypse miss when the casting pet is dead? -> perhaps such infos should be entered on the pet ability database here?)
Drlambda wrote:Lower the speed of the S/S Wicked Soul to 325...i'd love to hear opinions on that.
I just dont see it as over the top as you do.
Drlambda wrote:That being said, considering an S/S serpent, i don't think that dealing an average of over 400 damage for 3 turns
I dont know where you get the 400? 675/3* + 75 = 300 (3* = when we suppose every 3 of the initial attacks hit)
Drlambda wrote:full Darkness teams will always be a good counter to Sunny Day.
No they wont. A good Sun team beats a even better played Darkness team.
Drlambda wrote:And like i said, this is the only positive aspect of having BS right now in my opinion, and that's only because Sunny Day is problematic as well (and this time only partially because of it's sheer power, but more because it works in a way that enforces 30-minute-stalemates - and i don't think anyone is genuinely enjoying those.)
I have played games that lasted for hours so idc :D
Vakeetah wrote:I'd say the problem is [ability]Haunt[/ability] itself, being an all-in-one avoidance/swap/damage move.
And thats what its supposed to be?

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Re: A year after Legion Pet Battle Tuning. Thoughts?

Post by Drlambda » July 21st, 2017, 6:14 pm

i mean, Biscuit did the basic math there, and you can see that Barrage + Call Darkness + Barrage will deal over 400 damage on average - Average Bone Barrage damage is 355 (444 * 0.8) + 49 dot, Call Darkness is 493 plus another round on dot. If Barrages wouldn't have a bug, average damage would be lower for the second hit, but the second hit is 111 * 0.7 + 333 * 0.8 = 344 + 49.

355 + 493 + 344 + 3*49 = 1339 (446 avg)
This is elementals where you probably shouldn't NS. For nonelementals:
1339 + 659 + 49 = 2047 (511 avg)
Funny enough, even considering you die on your movement-locked turn, damage stays over 400 average.
2047 + 49 = 2096 (419 avg)
Drudatz wrote:Yes, its fair to compare them - same goes for tripple Iron Starlet - people hoping for easy wins and NONE of these 3 is HARD to kill or does more dmg then the other. (Dont get me wrong since start I am strongly against tripplets of ANY kind, thus why I say every 9 pet abilities on a team have to be DIFFERENT)
So are you saying that Bone Serpent is as easy to kill while stopping it from marauding over your team as Starlette and Nexus Whelpling? Because if you say it is, i'd really like to know your secret. I know that i consider the Serpent to be way harder to kill without taking a whole lot of damage compared to both of the other pets.

@Biscuit: About the Fiendish Imp change. I agree that WS was obviously engineered to shadownerf Fiendish Imp (being the fastest undead etc) but i think it hurt the meta more than actually nerfing Fiendish Imp. Both of them have "artifically" increased speed compared to their family average, and both excel in a metagame defined by speed because of that - and i just don't see that it has to be this way. And it's not like i'm suggesting a nerf that will put them out of the meta, i'd say that both of them would very likely still be tier 1 at 325.
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Re: A year after Legion Pet Battle Tuning. Thoughts?

Post by Rosqo » July 21st, 2017, 6:21 pm

Biscuit wrote:@ Closetozero

I've got to disagree with your Wicked Soul idea - at least partially.

Remember how great it was when Graves finally got nerfed?
Humanoids everywhere rejoiced and none more so than the Fiendish Imp.
At the start of Legion, it got so bad that I couldn't get into a battle without seeing an Imp. It was insane and I dreaded the future of PVP in Legion because of it.

But then, outta nowhere, a new Sheriff came into town...and his name was Wicked Soul.

Only then did I see the Imps crawl back into their little troll caves in utter fear of eating those Haunts.
The WS is a necessary evil. Without him, Imps will rule once again. No bueno.
I'll meet you half way though Zero, we'll take away the S/S Wicked Soul leaving it with the P/S or S/B breeds. But ONLY if we also remove the S/S breed Fiendish Imp and leave it with its P/S or P/B breeds.
Sound like a deal, mate? ha ha

That will still make the Soul faster (301 to 297), but leave them both slower than traditionally fast pets.
I'm totally down for that change.
This would be a very good change.

Essentially solving two problems at the same time.

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Re: A year after Legion Pet Battle Tuning. Thoughts?

Post by Rosqo » July 21st, 2017, 6:36 pm

Drlambda wrote:i mean, Biscuit did the basic math there, and you can see that Barrage + Call Darkness + Barrage will deal over 400 damage on average - Average Bone Barrage damage is 355 (444 * 0.8) + 49 dot, Call Darkness is 493 plus another round on dot. If Barrages wouldn't have a bug, average damage would be lower for the second hit, but the second hit is 111 * 0.7 + 333 * 0.8 = 344 + 49.

355 + 493 + 344 + 3*49 = 1339 (446 avg)
This is elementals where you probably shouldn't NS. For nonelementals:
1339 + 659 + 49 = 2047 (511 avg)
Funny enough, even considering you die on your movement-locked turn, damage stays over 400 average.
2047 + 49 = 2096 (419 avg)
Drudatz wrote:Yes, its fair to compare them - same goes for tripple Iron Starlet - people hoping for easy wins and NONE of these 3 is HARD to kill or does more dmg then the other. (Dont get me wrong since start I am strongly against tripplets of ANY kind, thus why I say every 9 pet abilities on a team have to be DIFFERENT)
So are you saying that Bone Serpent is as easy to kill while stopping it from marauding over your team as Starlette and Nexus Whelpling? Because if you say it is, i'd really like to know your secret. I know that i consider the Serpent to be way harder to kill without taking a whole lot of damage compared to both of the other pets.

@Biscuit: About the Fiendish Imp change. I agree that WS was obviously engineered to shadownerf Fiendish Imp (being the fastest undead etc) but i think it hurt the meta more than actually nerfing Fiendish Imp. Both of them have "artifically" increased speed compared to their family average, and both excel in a metagame defined by speed because of that - and i just don't see that it has to be this way. And it's not like i'm suggesting a nerf that will put them out of the meta, i'd say that both of them would very likely still be tier 1 at 325.
You didn't include the crit chance on those calculations Closetozero so they are probably all a fraction low. Still it's very clear the Bone Serpent needs tweaking nice work.

I agree the skewed speed stats of the imp and wicked soul are the reason they are soo strong in the meta. Basically they out speed anything less than 325 (non flyers). Even if they were 325 it would open up some more counters admittedly there would be a lot of 50/50 coin tosses. The imp would still be strong though probably ahead of the wicked soul if they both went to 325 which is why removing the s/s breeds from both could work out better.

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Re: A year after Legion Pet Battle Tuning. Thoughts?

Post by Rosqo » July 21st, 2017, 6:52 pm

The stats totals are worked out from the base stats of a pet combined with the stat distribution a set breed.

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Re: A year after Legion Pet Battle Tuning. Thoughts?

Post by Drlambda » July 21st, 2017, 6:55 pm

Biscuit wrote:Speaking about these speedy pets as well as earlier mentions of tokens to reroll breeds had me curious about something...

How much HP or power would we be willing to sacrifice on a pet in order to gift it just ONE point of speed?
100 HP? Or more?
25 atk pwr? Or more?
And who would you give that +1 speed to?
This is interesting as a thought experiment. it really depends. Obviously adding it to a slow pet will not be worth much, although increasing 260 to 261 might do something. Adding it to an already fast pet to put it higher than his direct enemies is worth a lot, like at 292, 325, 341 and 357. Unless your direct enemy is undead or mechanical, we're talking about a full basic attack here, so around 300hp with that point being a steal at 250, although the value gets lower in both directions from 341. I'd pay the full price only for 341 speed pets.
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Re: A year after Legion Pet Battle Tuning. Thoughts?

Post by Spinning » July 21st, 2017, 7:03 pm

Biscuit wrote:Speaking about these speedy pets as well as earlier mentions of tokens to reroll breeds had me curious about something...

How much HP or power would we be willing to sacrifice on a pet in order to gift it just ONE point of speed?
100 HP? Or more?
25 atk pwr? Or more?
And who would you give that +1 speed to?
SS Rabbit with 358 speed pay with health
SS Dig Rat with 326 speed pay with health
HH Ghastly Kid with 261 speed pay with health
SS Alpine Fox with 326 speed pay with damage
SS Hopling with 326 speed pay with damage
...these would be my top picks immediately

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Re: A year after Legion Pet Battle Tuning. Thoughts?

Post by Gráinne » July 22nd, 2017, 12:58 am

Biscuit wrote:Kill a pet right after it uses Wish and what happens?
It still goes off.
I don't think so.

I used to run a Wisp team, and when I mistimed the swap, and the Wisp died on the round it cast Wish, I never got the heal on the incoming pet.

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Re: A year after Legion Pet Battle Tuning. Thoughts?

Post by Rosqo » July 22nd, 2017, 3:03 am

Gráinne wrote:
Biscuit wrote:Kill a pet right after it uses Wish and what happens?
It still goes off.
I don't think so.

I used to run a Wisp team, and when I mistimed the swap, and the Wisp died on the round it cast Wish, I never got the heal on the incoming pet.
A dead wish pet will still have its wish go off.

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Re: A year after Legion Pet Battle Tuning. Thoughts?

Post by Drudatz » July 22nd, 2017, 6:05 am

Drlambda wrote:i mean, Biscuit did the basic math there, and you can see that Barrage + Call Darkness + Barrage will deal over 400 damage on average
The problem with you theoretics is that its in theory which is not what happens in reality.

Yes these BS are easy to kill by critters (ie rabbits) or elementals and a team of ghostly kid (hoof and hunt) and rabbit. Hell you probably could put in a Plushi and still win. :twisted:
(to be fair I dont care at all if they are nerved as I dont play them myself cause every darkness player in my eyes is not a real pet battler but my point is you making the issue bigger then it is in reality)
Last edited by Drudatz on July 24th, 2017, 5:24 am, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: A year after Legion Pet Battle Tuning. Thoughts?

Post by Drudatz » July 22nd, 2017, 6:08 am

Rosqo wrote:A dead wish pet will still have its wish go off.
No it doesnt - to be precise it depends:

#1 - Pet cast wish - opponents turn - caster pet dies - new pet comes in - wish doesnt go off.

BUT

#2 - Pet casts wish - caster pet gets killed - new pets comes in - wish goes off.

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