Since when does Yen have takedown?

[Sellys]

Didn't he used to have Comeback in slot 1?

[Chibimage]

Taran Zhu got nerfed in beta to make it a reasonable fight for 2 pet stuff.

I really didn't notice if moves changed tbh - I was just really glad they nerfed it.

[Liopleurodon]

Since 6.0! haha.

Yeah, without Comeback you don't have to worry about avoiding an Undead in the first slot against Yen's all-Humanoid team.

[Sellys]

Hmm. Guess I didn't notice it the first week of 6.0. Assuming we've had him once before since 6.0. Which I think we should have. Oh well at least my S/S flyer thingy is faster than the final pet even if the flyer is under 50%.

[Poofah]

Since 6.0! haha.

Yeah, without Comeback you don't have to worry about avoiding an Undead in the first slot against Yen's all-Humanoid team.

Not just that, Takedown does weak dmg to beasts, and Mr Grubbs/maggot already made this a pretty easy 2-pet fight (and occasionally 1-pet).

Did anything else get nerfed for the sake of the Trunks achievement, that we know of? I don't know how hard the new WoD tamers are, but the current ones all seemed very doable.

[Jerebear]

Did anything else get nerfed for the sake of the Trunks achievement, that we know of? I don't know how hard the new WoD tamers are, but the current ones all seemed very doable.

Both Cymre (WoD tamer) and Christopher Feasel were nerfed for Trunks, though those happened in Beta prior to release.

[Poofah]

Do you happen to know how they were changed? For example vonFeasel is pretty fun but he got figured out very quickly, so the current version is not very hard. I'm curious what they consider to be 'too hard', and how they arrive at the balance they want.

[Chibimage]

Jere and I (and probably others who we never saw talk to the devs on Twitter but posted Help>Suggestions in the beta) just fought these tamers over and over and over and over and over and over to work them through their paces.

They really needed a toning down. They are *still* challenging 2 pet fights, but there aren't very many other than those and some of the Celestial Tournament fights (which aren't challenging so much as scripted).

My argument kept it in the corner of this being a side-game that has no reason to be rage inducing for anyone playing it - i.e. no nailbiting RNG fests.

The whole Achievement is entirely for not-your-average-battle-pet player anyway, I think it's exactly where it needs to be. I love the whole idea of it and it's been fun -- and most importantly, should remain fun!

[Poofah]

They really needed a toning down.
...
The whole Achievement is entirely for not-your-average-battle-pet player anyway, I think it's exactly where it needs to be.

That's fine, I was just hoping for specifics, to get some insight into their design process. I don't think Trunks should be a super tough achieve either. Presumably the devs thought the old versions were too hard, and the new versions are just right. So I'm curious precisely how the original vonFeasel and Cymre were different.

For example I know Stitches Jr went through several changes to tone him down. He was doable in all the versions, but needed fairly specific combos in the early versions. I totally understand why they changed him -- mainly it's nice to know where they draw the line in terms of being too hard or not.

[Jerebear]

Do you happen to know how they were changed? For example vonFeasel is pretty fun but he got figured out very quickly, so the current version is not very hard. I'm curious what they consider to be 'too hard', and how they arrive at the balance they want.

Off the top of my head:

Cymre's pets had their stats shuffled taking away speed in favor of more HP. In addition, the lamp pet had its AI adjusted so that the sunlight+wish combo didn't happen as quickly.

Christopher Feasel's pets had some AI and ability changes. Syd went from being random to having a deterministic pattern. Mr. Pointy traded the direhorn ability that stuns for horn gore.

That's all I remember off hand.

[Liopleurodon]

That's fine, I was just hoping for specifics, to get some insight into their design process.

The 11th hour Von Feasel change made Syd's behavior more consistent, which seems to be a big theme here, esp with the Accuracy changes. Syd used to just bubble or whirlpool pretty much whenever. Now, it's every cooldown on both. He's less RNG prone but as a result also uses whirlpool & bubble more frequently. It's easier to plan around but you can't count on him using his water jet up front just this ooone tiiiime come onnnnn. I see a few 'turn 1 do X'-style strats like the rabbits vs Thundering Spirit strat in the future as people get more familiar with that one.

'Find The Fun' is a known mantra in the Blizzard design process, so I get the feeling that much of the current state of battles (particularly the accuracy change) has a lot to do with that.

[Poofah]

I see, thank you.

The 11th hour Von Feasel change made Syd's behavior more consistent,

Yes, this was especially noticeable with the spirit tamers too. They seem to be pushing more and more toward a puzzle type of game, where once you solve it, it's consistently solved by the same strat every time afterward. As opposed to having to react to adversity due to unpredictable move selection or bad RNG.

Not that this is bad, necessarily. But it pushes PvE and PvP farther apart, since PvP is much more about mitigating risk and reacting to the opponent.

[Kpb321]

Maybe it's just me but last night it felt like Yen was much harder with this change. Previously I used Mr Wiggles and Mr Grubbs and regularly carried a pet for a little exp but last night I failed multiple times and finally had to three pet it.

[Chibimage]

Festering Maggot & S/S Crow can handle Taran Zhu handily. It's just scripted and you gotta miss that Blackout Kick with Burrow. Consume is your meal ticket, as you just are mega tanky with it because it hits for so hard so you heal for a lot.

[Jerebear]

Also note that they changed the mechanics of the 3rd pet of Taran Zhu to not heal at less than 50% (I think it is now less than 25% but haven't tested). Ironically that messed up my current strategy which relied on specific timing.