The Search For Equilibrium and The Perfect Team

Discuss pet battles, strategy and theorycrafting.
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Gráinne
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Re: The Search For Equilibrium and The Perfect Team

Post by Gráinne » May 22nd, 2016, 12:57 am

I think I was unclear when I said "brute-forcing solutions". I didn't know there was a team called Brute Force Trauma. Chrominius, Starlette, and .... ?

[As an aside, I once assembled a PvP team I called Hulk Smash for a beginner's first foray into the queue: Bone Serpent, Nexus Whelpling, Iron Starlette. I showed him how to use each of them, told him to try for good matchups for each against each of the opponent's pets, duelled him twice, and let him go. He did quite well. :)]

Anyway, by brute-force I meant solving a battle by brute-force simulating all possible moves, or, for speed, simulating all moves while pruning branches that appear unpromising. This method is used in many areas of computing, and notably in games. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solved_game The search space for a pet battle is not unreasonably large. Of course, RNG elements would expand the possibilities, but I think for a basic solution, I'd be happy to see values with things like crits and Darkness misses removed.

I started to look at this once, but was daunted by the, um, idiosyncratic behaviour of many abilities, like coding a two-hit Alpha Strike to take down only one Decoy. After that, the actual solution of a battle for two given teams would be relatively easy. I have been tempted to produce a starter project that would solve a one vs. one duel between two pets, just to quantify how big the gap is between the top and bottom pets.

You seem to have studied this quite extensively, and perhaps only an actual solver could provide improvements.

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Re: The Search For Equilibrium and The Perfect Team

Post by Virgilioar » May 22nd, 2016, 3:12 am

Gráinne wrote:I think I was unclear when I said "brute-forcing solutions". I didn't know there was a team called Brute Force Trauma. Chrominius, Starlette, and .... ?

[As an aside, I once assembled a PvP team I called Hulk Smash for a beginner's first foray into the queue: Bone Serpent, Nexus Whelpling, Iron Starlette. I showed him how to use each of them, told him to try for good matchups for each against each of the opponent's pets, duelled him twice, and let him go. He did quite well. :)]

Anyway, by brute-force I meant solving a battle by brute-force simulating all possible moves, or, for speed, simulating all moves while pruning branches that appear unpromising. This method is used in many areas of computing, and notably in games. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solved_game The search space for a pet battle is not unreasonably large. Of course, RNG elements would expand the possibilities, but I think for a basic solution, I'd be happy to see values with things like crits and Darkness misses removed.

I started to look at this once, but was daunted by the, um, idiosyncratic behaviour of many abilities, like coding a two-hit Alpha Strike to take down only one Decoy. After that, the actual solution of a battle for two given teams would be relatively easy. I have been tempted to produce a starter project that would solve a one vs. one duel between two pets, just to quantify how big the gap is between the top and bottom pets.

You seem to have studied this quite extensively, and perhaps only an actual solver could provide improvements.
Oh wow you really took it to the next level. There would be some tricky moves to write in like Avalanche vs Bonestorm or factoring in all of the weather with the 50% hit abilities and the 80% hit abilities and Blind and yea no I can see why it was daunting.

Let's think about this another way. Specifically with teams like the one mentioned in this post (Nightshade, Imp, Kid), bluffing or predicting plays a big part in winning. That means we need a more mechanic team that works well in every situation.

Let's assume a triple [pet]Anubisath Idol[/pet] team just because we can.

This theoretical team will execute a basic rotation: Sandstorm, Rupture, Deflect

It "insists" on Sandstorm weather by swapping and restarting the rotation if the weather is changed

Here we have constant DoT Protection with a constant heal. This in addition to relatively high consistent damage and a 25% chance to stun. There is also a base 10% hit reduction (except with elemental).

Other than creating a theoretical situation with a team like the one mentioned above and grinding out the code to simulate the fight, I can't think of anyway to guarantee a solved game.

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Re: The Search For Equilibrium and The Perfect Team

Post by Paladance » May 22nd, 2016, 5:29 am

Do you have any idea about teams based on [ability]Celestial Blessing[/ability]? This spell looks lovely, but neither Yu'la nor porcupette seem inspiring enough. Poor lil' Celestial, so owned because of the cooldowns!
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I have compiled community knowledge & data about pet battle abilities!
https://www.warcraftpets.com/community/forum/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=19507

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Re: The Search For Equilibrium and The Perfect Team

Post by Virgilioar » May 22nd, 2016, 1:34 pm

Paladance wrote:Do you have any idea about teams based on [ability]Celestial Blessing[/ability]? This spell looks lovely, but neither Yu'la nor porcupette seem inspiring enough. Poor lil' Celestial, so owned because of the cooldowns!
I went through this when the Celestial Tournament came out. I couldn't stand to think it was useless, so here is what I developed:

The first team is a full reflection of what I was playing at the time. In fact, it's basically how I leveled [pet]Yu'la, Broodling of Yu'lon[/pet] from 22 to 100 (the leveling technique I use leaves pets at 22-23 and I opt to finish it off leveling them through PVP to avoid wasting my Pet Treat).

V Razz - [pet]Yu'la, Broodling of Yu'lon[/pet]
V Rook - [pet]Fiendish Imp[/pet]
V Defile - [pet]Unborn Val'kyr[/pet]

The idea here was to protect your [pet]Fiendish Imp[/pet] while your [pet]Unborn Val'kyr[/pet] was mid Haunt. In hindsight, this actually works quite well with the [pet]Harmonious Porcupette[/pet] thanks to Claw to counter Critter Type pets and defend your [pet]Unborn Val'kyr[/pet]. Another variation is bringing in the [pet]Ghastly Kid[/pet] in for the [pet]Unborn Val'kyr[/pet].

From here I went into a Blunt Force Trauma damage variation.

V Krusty - [pet]Magical Crawdad[/pet]
V Razz - [pet]Yu'la, Broodling of Yu'lon[/pet]
V Pilsbury - [pet]Iron Starlette[/pet]

Here you keep the Star alive while mitigating Yula damage with [ability]Life Exchange[/ability] and getting some close kills with [ability]Jadefire Lightning[/ability]'s AoE factor. You use the Craw to heal the Star. After the peak of Darkness based teams, I swapped out the Craw with [pet]Xu-Fu, Cub of Xuen[/pet] which made it considerably better.

Which takes me to what I went for next, AoE:

V Rudolph - [pet]Winter Reindeer[/pet]
V Razz - [pet]Yu'la, Broodling of Yu'lon[/pet]
V Lilo - [pet]Graves[/pet]

Here the goal is to protect Graves at all costs. The Reindeer serves as a great counter to Critter Type pets and keeps up it's companions and itself with Bleat and Nature's Ward (which also helps avoid Beast Type attacks).

At the end of the day what I realised was I would rather heal than counter damage. This is because AoE comps hit you whenever so even if I get the Celestial Blessing off on a team member, I may still get butchered in the background, especially if I was hit hard while casting the blessing. I guess it's all preference, but it is nice to watch and [pet]Iron Starlette[/pet] hack through an entire team when the opportunity presents itself!
Last edited by Virgilioar on May 23rd, 2016, 2:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: The Search For Equilibrium and The Perfect Team

Post by Virgilioar » May 29th, 2016, 3:01 pm

Biscuit wrote:
Paladance wrote:Do you have any idea about teams based on [ability]Celestial Blessing[/ability]? This spell looks lovely, but neither Yu'la nor porcupette seem inspiring enough. Poor lil' Celestial, so owned because of the cooldowns!
The new [pet]Celestial Calf[/pet] comes equipped with [ability]Deep Bite[/ability], [ability]Celestial Blessing[/ability] (or [ability]Stoneskin[/ability]) and [ability]Wish[/ability].

Personally, other than the lackluster B/B breed, I'm very excited for this pet and I believe it'll be an elemental killer for sure.

Celestial Calf, Blossoming Ancient, Graves... Called it! I think we just broke WoW pets!!

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Re: The Search For Equilibrium and The Perfect Team

Post by Logansfury » May 29th, 2016, 5:29 pm

Hello Virgil,

Ive been working with the Murk/Trunks/Graves & Murk/Trunks/Frostwolf teams heavily since you posted. Ive been fortunate in finding a great variety of teams to go against and they are maintaining high win percentages.

As you gave them unnamed ive taken the liberty of dubbing them "Hannibal Express I & II". For some reason Murkalot heavily laden atop Trunks gallumphing across the Alps sprang to mind. Probably too much pet battling.

Finding them great fun to play, thank you again for the excellent suggestions!
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Re: The Search For Equilibrium and The Perfect Team

Post by Virgilioar » May 29th, 2016, 10:03 pm

Logansfury wrote:Hello Virgil,

Ive been working with the Murk/Trunks/Graves & Murk/Trunks/Frostwolf teams heavily since you posted. Ive been fortunate in finding a great variety of teams to go against and they are maintaining high win percentages.

As you gave them unnamed ive taken the liberty of dubbing them "Hannibal Express I & II". For some reason Murkalot heavily laden atop Trunks gallumphing across the Alps sprang to mind. Probably too much pet battling.

Finding them great fun to play, thank you again for the excellent suggestions!
I really hope I don't run into you but if I do make sure you nickname your pets so I can put them into the Catalog!

[url=http://www.warcraftpets.com/community/forum/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=15806&p=125879#p125879]Catalog of CURRENT Players in PVP Queue[/url]

I wonder, does that make Graves the Romans? Or the remains of their elephants united to form an awkward amalgamation...

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Re: The Search For Equilibrium and The Perfect Team

Post by Logansfury » May 30th, 2016, 4:16 am

I run with a number of named pets. Dont see any of my teams as of my last look at the compiled list, but ill keep my eye on it.
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Re: The Search For Equilibrium and The Perfect Team

Post by Virgilioar » May 30th, 2016, 2:31 pm

Logansfury wrote:I run with a number of named pets. Dont see any of my teams as of my last look at the compiled list, but ill keep my eye on it.
Do you know how the "Battle Groups" work? Is it like PVP where an x amount of realms are compete with each other exclusively? If I go to different servers do I que up against new people? If so I would love to see what other groups are trending!

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Re: The Search For Equilibrium and The Perfect Team

Post by Logansfury » May 30th, 2016, 5:05 pm

Virgilioar wrote:
Logansfury wrote:I run with a number of named pets. Dont see any of my teams as of my last look at the compiled list, but ill keep my eye on it.
Do you know how the "Battle Groups" work? Is it like PVP where an x amount of realms are compete with each other exclusively? If I go to different servers do I que up against new people? If so I would love to see what other groups are trending!
This has been a complete mystery to me. Ive noted many times being matched against the same person literally 6+ times in a row and wondered "are we the only two people battling out of several million subscribers?"
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Re: The Search For Equilibrium and The Perfect Team

Post by Gráinne » May 30th, 2016, 5:12 pm

Virgilioar wrote:Do you know how the "Battle Groups" work? Is it like PVP where an x amount of realms are compete with each other exclusively? If I go to different servers do I que up against new people? If so I would love to see what other groups are trending!
I believe no-one outside Blizzard knows. Anecdata is the best we have.

There was a long discussion about it on the US forums
http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/12673258432

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Re: The Search For Equilibrium and The Perfect Team

Post by Logansfury » June 7th, 2016, 1:07 am

Hey Virgil,

I just completed my 1000 wins achieve. I managed to use the Hannibal Express team you gave me 69 times, finishing the achieve with it. Record at this point:

Wins: 52 75.4%
Losses: 16 23.2%
Draws: 1 1.4%

Thank you so much! This team has become one of my most fun teams to play, I dont know how ill ever repay you! :)
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Re: The Search For Equilibrium and The Perfect Team

Post by Wootzy » August 2nd, 2016, 4:22 pm

Hi guys,

SOo...bye bye Graves :mrgreen: ..the pvp queue did changed after the undead nerf, don't you think? How are you'll doing?

For sure the combination of Ghastly Kid, Fiendish Imp and Teroclaw Hatching is even stronger. I bet some of us play that team regular by now. Let me ask: what would be the perfect counter?

Darkness teams are going strong too. I'm having fun with Frostfur Rat, Ruby Droplet, Nightshade Sproutling, Ghastly Kid, Bone Serpent, Jademist Dancer. Elemental pets in general are fairing better, or so I feel.

Still haven't found what I'm looking for, but I'm liking Bloss.Ancient (with Autumn Breeze), and Vengeful Porcupette together (for coverage and the beast racial). What third pet would make it "perfect" as far as it goes?
And don't say that ugly bird Teroclaw! ;)

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Re: The Search For Equilibrium and The Perfect Team

Post by Logansfury » August 2nd, 2016, 5:21 pm

Wootzy wrote:Hi guys,

SOo...bye bye Graves :mrgreen: ..the pvp queue did changed after the undead nerf, don't you think? How are you'll doing?

For sure the combination of Ghastly Kid, Fiendish Imp and Teroclaw Hatching is even stronger. I bet some of us play that team regular by now. Let me ask: what would be the perfect counter?

Darkness teams are going strong too. I'm having fun with Frostfur Rat, Ruby Droplet, Nightshade Sproutling, Ghastly Kid, Bone Serpent, Jademist Dancer. Elemental pets in general are fairing better, or so I feel.

Still haven't found what I'm looking for, but I'm liking Bloss.Ancient (with Autumn Breeze), and Vengeful Porcupette together (for coverage and the beast racial). What third pet would make it "perfect" as far as it goes?
And don't say that ugly bird Teroclaw! ;)
Id think a lot of humanoids will be coming back into action so a humanoid counter with that ancient and porcupette may do nicely.

Im finding Crusher in PP breed to be doing very well on teams, his shield is still strong after the nerf.

Consuming Darkness teams are proving strong for me, pet mixes including Darkness, Noc Strike, and Consume Corpse.

Virgil's Equilibrium teams continue to do an excellent job for me as well. The Fiendish Imp is really shining!
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Re: The Search For Equilibrium and The Perfect Team

Post by Logansfury » August 2nd, 2016, 6:19 pm

Biscuit wrote:Not exactly a "perfect" counter to Virgil's team of Kid, Imp & Nightshade Sproutling, but 3 P/P Emperor Crabs would give this team a very, VERY hard time.

-The Kid becomes virtually useless thanks to aquatic racial.
-Shell Shield mitigates the Imp's backline heals.
-Shell Shield will also make the Sproutling hit like a pillow.
-Surge will guarantee you hit before Gate and/or Blind.
-Surge will prevent the Sproutling's Lash from proccing a 3rd hit.
-Surge will also hit the NSS like a truck.
-Blinded? No biggie. Just use that moment to refresh shield and heal.

I dare to say that's an unwinnable match-up for the Imp team.
Ive at least 2 maxed rare PP Emp Crabs but I think the third I keep in my stable is HH for tanking. Im at a point where I need to hold some pets in my bags to have more than 3 of certain pets, and max up and level 4th and 5ths of certain pets to cover various strategies.

All my 3 Bone Serpents are HH but I may need to backpack some of those and level up some power and speed breeds to have the roster to try some experiments I see going on out there on my own. No way do I want to release or destroy pets ive trained up, so in some cases with pets that cant be caged I may feel stuck with the 3 ive got.

Do you see any viability to a triple crab team beyond the specific counter to Virgil's team?
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Re: The Search For Equilibrium and The Perfect Team

Post by Wootzy » August 3rd, 2016, 2:46 am

Funny how we think alike. I have been running Ancient and Vengeful with the mighty Emperor. Triple or double Emperor isn't good enough overall, but indeed a strong specific counter. I'm experimenting with Ruby Droplet, it's really strong paired with another elemental, both in a darkness team and a sunlight team. I do like consume corps and haunt combo, but never thought of combining consume corps with darkness. Can't see how that would work?

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Re: The Search For Equilibrium and The Perfect Team

Post by Logansfury » August 3rd, 2016, 3:50 am

never thought of combining consume corps with darkness. Can't see how that would work?
All 3 team pets having at least 2 of the following 3 abilities: Call Darkness, Nocturnal Strike, Consume Corpse

Gives a lot of big hits and lets at least one pet enjoy some staying power!

*Edit* I double checked and the team is actually 2 pets with 2 of the abilities and 1 pet with 1 of the abilities. A few different versions of this are working well for me atm.
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