Against new class hall pets!!

[Peanutty]

Are you using Premade Group Finder? If so, how is the group listed?
I use a WQ addon and the Premade Group Finder for everything!

.


Yes I use the premade ingame group finder. Usually I type in warlock or ritual summoning and I find one. If none are up I make my own or there are a few locks already there. Usually I get in a group and done with this in less than 5 minutes

If you reaaaally can't stand to use the group finder (and "Ritual of Doom" was the group name I usually saw for locks) you can just hang out on the summoning platform and as long as you participate in the kill and aren't locked out, you're eligible for loot. Some days I just couldn't get people to take my 105 lock so I'd just join in on a kill.

[Quintessence]

I'll just have to politely disagree. While I understand your frustration, I subscribe to the mindset that the game isn't created for you, or for me specifically and instead for many different types of players. Being so, it's hard to empathize with complaints that are essentially, "this isn't how I want to play".

I also think that there are acceptable grinds in the game; this being one of them. And as far as grinds go, the class pets are pretty simple. You get to try a class out, experience the new artifact quest-line, and hopefully have a little fun and reward for doing so. Honestly, I don't even know if it should be called a grind.

I'm in partial agreement with you. Yes, some grinds are just that. Grinds. "Eventually" is better than "never".

So keep the class-specific pets as they are. But only for now IMO.

My stance on making the pets cageable NEXT EXPANSION stem from the fact that some of these pets are likely to involve multiple gating factors: specific player level, class hall level, and RNG. (Druid and Demon Hunter/Warlock pets, for example)

Now, I don't know about everyone else, but I don't want to hang around in old content indefinitely when there's new content to explore and play around with. Even with alts, I want to be able to enjoy the new stories without feeling like I'm obligated to hang around a dated Order Hall.

Pets that involve the factors listed above kind of "lock" you into feeling that way though. Sure, you could visit once a day or however often necessary to try for the pet. But that just makes it feel all the worse. 'I came all the way back here to try and still nothing. '

Cageable class pets would also help alleviate the pressure on collectors that may WANT to level multiple alts, but simply don't have the time to do so.

This is why I'm entirely in favor of keeping the pets as they are for now, but changing them to cageable come next expansion.

[Badpathing]

I'm in partial agreement with you. Yes, some grinds are just that. Grinds. "Eventually" is better than "never".

So keep the class-specific pets as they are. But only for now IMO.

My stance on making the pets cageable NEXT EXPANSION stem from the fact that some of these pets are likely to involve multiple gating factors: specific player level, class hall level, and RNG. (Druid and Demon Hunter/Warlock pets, for example)

Now, I don't know about everyone else, but I don't want to hang around in old content indefinitely when there's new content to explore and play around with. Even with alts, I want to be able to enjoy the new stories without feeling like I'm obligated to hang around a dated Order Hall.

Pets that involve the factors listed above kind of "lock" you into feeling that way though. Sure, you could visit once a day or however often necessary to try for the pet. But that just makes it feel all the worse. 'I came all the way back here to try and still nothing. '

Cageable class pets would also help alleviate the pressure on collectors that may WANT to level multiple alts, but simply don't have the time to do so.

This is why I'm entirely in favor of keeping the pets as they are for now, but changing them to cageable come next expansion.

That's an interesting position considering the raiding with leashes are exactly that; RNG focused pet drops gated behind old content.

I am staunchly against trivializing the pet acquisition post current-content, so we disagree on that.

If the argument is "I don't want to level an alt, so I'll wait till they become cageable and bypass the whole alt thing entirely", I disagree even more strongly since as I said in my initial response, this game doesn't cater to any one person. It is made for all types of players and I think that any particular subject area in the game that forces you outside of a narrow path to progression is healthy for the game, and the player base.

That could be debated I know, it's just my opinion. I just think it's silly to argue that because a person might not have time, or desire, they should have access to all pets; even if 'eventually' is used. It damages the notion of collecting and the very thing this site is based upon.

[Ranok]

I am staunchly against trivializing the pet acquisition post current-content, so we disagree on that.

Amen. Even since BC we've experienced the nerfs on things that were originally a feel-good-all-day major accomplishment and now take very little effort (damn kids have it easy these days, grumble, grumble). Please don't do this to pets.

[Badpathing]

I find it helps to use extreme examples to illustrate a point.

If I told you that you can click on a box and receive every pet leveled to 25, would you be happy with that? No one would I don't think and I understand it's an absurd example, but it points to the fact that every step toward 'making it easier' has a cost.

You must always use the yardstick that takes into account the full measure of the player base to make measurements, not just one that counts your tick marks. Meaning, for every player that wants a pet drop to be easier, there is another who wishes it wasn't. Having a diverse path to pet collecting progression makes the nature of collecting pets satisfying, challenging and entertaining.

The only point I was really trying to make is that the notion of duplicate grinds/mechanisms/etc across factions breaks the model. A grind is fine; making me do a grind twice, that is exactly the same lacks imagination and should really not exist.

All opinion.

[Quintessence]

That's an interesting position considering the raiding with leashes are exactly that; RNG focused pet drops gated behind old content.

Disagree on this.

The class-specific pets are not like the RWL companions in that there's no 'nostalgia' to be had with the class pets. Come next expansion, it would just feel like we're tied to our Order Halls, hoping for a drop, rather than revisiting something we haven't experienced in a while.

RWL is RNG in old(er) content but there's a nostalgia factor that adds some charm to it. Plus the RWL pets are cageable, which makes a wide range of collectors happy because it gives them options.

this game doesn't cater to any one person.

This argument could also be used for why cageable class-specific pets (in the future) would be a good thing. The game isn't made for only those with a lot of time or desire to level multiple characters. What better way to allow access to a larger audience than to make these pets cageable?

I do understand the position against "trivializing" how certain pets are acquired, and that may devalue the experience (but not necessarily the pet - collectors will generally always want the pet, regardless of perceived value) as a whole. Waiting for a more convenient and "easy" method to bypass the actual process of collecting is not the intended goal behind the idea to make them cageable.

The only compromise for that that I can think of is to make the class-specific pets cageable in the far future, at an unknown and undisclosed time. And not to openly declare that that's the plan. We'll have no way of knowing if/when it'll happen, meaning if we want the pets, we'll have to make a go for them ourselves in the interim. But in the end when the change does come, I think some collectors will be very happy and grateful for it.

Disclaimer and side note, somewhat off topic: This is just an opinion coming from someone that has the time and desire to go for all class pets. I just feel for those that don't have that luxury. It's heartbreaking to read more and more deciding to either give up on or put on hold collecting due to recent exclusive pets.

There is a deepening sentiment that pet collecting is just too out of reach with more and more pets gated/locked behind certain activities.

The problem is, while yes there are some extreme examples of exclusive pets (Murky, Mini Tyrael, CE pets, time limited pets, etc.) the more recent ones are not that extreme and could seemingly be made more in reach of even casual collectors.

Yet Blizzard has chosen not to implement them in a way that's more collector-friendly. I think this is what's really turning people off and why I'm all for compromising on how certain pets are obtained.

[Paladance]

I don't want to discourage anyone, but if this can be a source of any analogy, [pet]Red Cricket[/pet] still is uncageable. Though maybe it's just a fact it was a personal gift.

On the other hand, what about [pet]Trashy[/pet]? The [pet]Sting Ray Pup[/pet] can be traded, aswell as all fishing pets throughout the history.

An evil thought: We shall wait two expansions for Legion Timewalking and then all these pets (or a token to exchange at some NPC) will be available in a completely non-individual way for 2k Timewarped Badges.

I find it helps to use extreme examples to illustrate a point.

NO. It never helps.

Everything can be reduced to an absurd, for example let's go the other way and go back to the times you needed to have bank space for pets. Not gonna happen either, so stop it.

[Digem]

These pets should be unlocked by getting pvp prestige maxed on one toon or be purchasable period. Forcing this on players will not make them like pvp but come to hate it. When will they learn this?

I'll just reiterate that gating any content behind any sort of play-style is pretty much OK since the game caters to many different types of players.

The core of my comment was that it is lazy and uninspired to create gated content that is redundant across factions. Pushing players into new areas is fine, even if you don't like it. Pushing players into new areas for content and then making it redundant by faction disparity is just.....bad.

Having to do it once on a main is one thing having to do it a second time on an alt is where it will start to make some one dislike this.

FYI for those needing to do this on an opposing faction make a demon hunter alt. Demon hunters have a class hall ability to automatically do one world quest a day. Just choose one of the tower quests and you will raise your pvp prestige. Makes doing this a bit more tolerable

[Badpathing]

Everything can be reduced to an absurd, for example let's go the other way and go back to the times you needed to have bank space for pets. Not gonna happen either, so stop it.

That made a lot of sense, thank you for the excellent counter point.

Getting back in touch with reality, feel free to contribute something sensible as this is an interesting discussion.

[Badpathing]

The class-specific pets are not like the RWL companions in that there's no 'nostalgia' to be had with the class pets. Come next expansion, it would just feel like we're tied to our Order Halls, hoping for a drop, rather than revisiting something we haven't experienced in a while.

RWL is RNG in old(er) content but there's a nostalgia factor that adds some charm to it. Plus the RWL pets are cageable, which makes a wide range of collectors happy because it gives them options.

Interesting; so you'd take something as subjective and personal as nostalgia and speak as an authority on it. k. Not to mention that there absolutely could be a nostalgic element for a person playing through a class hall questline. I just don't assume my tastes are the same as every other player.

This argument could also be used for why cageable class-specific pets (in the future) would be a good thing. The game isn't made for only those with a lot of time or desire to level multiple characters. What better way to allow access to a larger audience than to make these pets cageable?

This is completely silly and a mutation of the point. So your solution for making a game with different types of players is to make all aspects of the game absolutely homogenized. That would be boring as shit. I sincerely hope that isn't the actual direction Blizz has in mind. It's like your solution ignores the fact that making the pets cageable denies the players who like the alt-hunt for pets.

You do see how you just swapped the target player and dumbed down pet hunting right? So nothing changed except to make pet collecting less dyanmaic.

It seems weird to point out on this site that keeping a competitive element for pet collecting is healthy.

/boggle

As for 'what is turning players off' and 'deepening sentiment', where exactly are you getting these statistics? er....lol, 'facts'?

It's an MMO. In an MMO there is a build up of content and part of the amazing aspects of a game like WoW is there is SO MUCH for a new player to learn and do. Dumbing everything down and taking any of the work out just creates a more shallow pot. Why is that desireable again?

[Killerkarl]

FYI for those needing to do this on an opposing faction make a demon hunter alt. Demon hunters have a class hall ability to automatically do one world quest a day. Just choose one of the tower quests and you will raise your pvp prestige. Makes doing this a bit more tolerable

They would better served to burn it on one of the 4 quests that are not the towers. The other 4 give 500 honor vs the 300 of the towers.

[Badpathing]

FYI for those needing to do this on an opposing faction make a demon hunter alt. Demon hunters have a class hall ability to automatically do one world quest a day. Just choose one of the tower quests and you will raise your pvp prestige. Makes doing this a bit more tolerable

They would better served to burn it on one of the 4 quests that are not the towers. The other 4 give 500 honor vs the 300 of the towers.

I do this on my horde alt (i play alliance) and he's halfway to prestige 2 now. I sometimes do an extra warden tower with marks show up, but that's about it.

[Quintessence]

So your solution for making a game with different types of players is to make all aspects of the game absolutely homogenized.

Absolutely not. No where did I state that I think "dumbing down" the game is a good thing. I merely would like to see some compromise.

Exclusive pets? Sure, ok. Some collectors simply won't have access to them. People who are alt-aholics will be rewarded because they will get those pets first.

But in the long run? They have made changes to pets in the past, and they can make changes to pets in the future. Hardcore collectors will have received their reward already. Players that have zero interest in battle pets will be rewarded with the ability to sell their class pets.

I would be all for making these class-specific pets cageable in the future, when players simply want to get on with the game and no one wants to stick around in their Legion Order Hall. It's not like they are doing anything different or productive to get the class pet. So far it's just killing a mob inside, or literally watching their crops grow. (Shaman pet is the exception since you just battle it and then are free to go about your business.)

It's ultimately Blizzard's decision what they want to do. If they decide to change the pets to cageable in the future? Great. If they don't, oh well. I'll support their decision either way on this particular matter.

I do hope they'll allow for some compromise though. There are a number of things they could do, not just make the pets cageable. Make sure the pets don't rely too heavily on RNG or not gate them behind (relatively high) player level and Order Hall level. Both of these ideas would ensure there's still variety in how they're obtained, depend on effort of the player, and give collectors the chance to experience content.

As for 'what is turning players off' and 'deepening sentiment', where exactly are you getting these statistics? er....lol, 'facts'?

There are no hard statistics, but comparing this expansion's community commentary with past ones, there's a shift in the overall temperature of the water.

Before Legion, whenever a pet was added that was not to some people's liking, there was complaining, expression of dislike, etc. Comments about quitting due to X pet weren't common at all.

Now, instead of just complaints, I've read a handful of collectors stating they're simply quitting collecting altogether. And even more statements about putting collecting on the back burner. The burn out is real in Legion (and not just for pet collectors).

Are there other reasons why people are quitting collecting? Most likely. But the exclusive pets are not helping. Since the other factors are unknown, I can only point out suggestions for changes/compromise to alleviate what I know to be an issue for some.

[Quintessence]

but if this can be a source of any analogy, [pet]Red Cricket[/pet] still is uncageable. Though maybe it's just a fact it was a personal gift.

The Red Cricket is more like an achievement pet to me. It's guaranteed for accomplishing a one time feat (friendship grind). Achievement pets have traditionally been BoP and not cageable, so I can see why the cricket remains that way.

Class pets? Not really in the same category IMO, as most of them (so far) rely on RNG.

[Vakeetah]

I would be all for making these class-specific pets cageable in the future, when players simply want to get on with the game and no one wants to stick around in their Legion Order Hall. It's not like they are doing anything different or productive to get the class pet. So far it's just killing a mob inside, or literally watching their crops grow. (Shaman pet is the exception since you just battle it and then are free to go about your business.)

It's ultimately Blizzard's decision what they want to do. If they decide to change the pets to cageable in the future? Great. If they don't, oh well. I'll support their decision either way on this particular matter.

I do hope they'll allow for some compromise though. There are a number of things they could do, not just make the pets cageable. Make sure the pets don't rely too heavily on RNG or not gate them behind (relatively high) player level and Order Hall level. Both of these ideas would ensure there's still variety in how they're obtained, depend on effort of the player, and give collectors the chance to experience content.

Well, a couple things that may help, without resorting to extreme measures, could be:
1) Ritual of Doom no longer requiring 3 people, and the bosses being soloable.
2) Evergreen Plots being available every day, similar to Farm plots (resetting with dailies)

Still RNG (bleh!) but with smoother means. It's not a matter of taking the exclusivity of Class Hall pets away by making them simply cageable, just making the logistics friendlier, because otherwise they'll be hard/annoying to obtain even in future expansions.

Another possibility is making them appear on the BMAH with 8.0 (of course, without removing them from their current source) I don't really like it, as a concept, but it's still an extra source for those who can't or don't want to get them by regular means.

[Digem]

The class-specific pets are not like the RWL companions in that there's no 'nostalgia' to be had with the class pets. Come next expansion, it would just feel like we're tied to our Order Halls, hoping for a drop, rather than revisiting something we haven't experienced in a while.

RWL is RNG in old(er) content but there's a nostalgia factor that adds some charm to it. Plus the RWL pets are cageable, which makes a wide range of collectors happy because it gives them options.

Interesting; so you'd take something as subjective and personal as nostalgia and speak as an authority on it. k. Not to mention that there absolutely could be a nostalgic element for a person playing through a class hall questline. I just don't assume my tastes are the same as every other player.

This argument could also be used for why cageable class-specific pets (in the future) would be a good thing. The game isn't made for only those with a lot of time or desire to level multiple characters. What better way to allow access to a larger audience than to make these pets cageable?

This is completely silly and a mutation of the point. So your solution for making a game with different types of players is to make all aspects of the game absolutely homogenized. That would be boring as shit. I sincerely hope that isn't the actual direction Blizz has in mind. It's like your solution ignores the fact that making the pets cageable denies the players who like the alt-hunt for pets.

You do see how you just swapped the target player and dumbed down pet hunting right? So nothing changed except to make pet collecting less dyanmaic.

It seems weird to point out on this site that keeping a competitive element for pet collecting is healthy.

/boggle

As for 'what is turning players off' and 'deepening sentiment', where exactly are you getting these statistics? er....lol, 'facts'?

It's an MMO. In an MMO there is a build up of content and part of the amazing aspects of a game like WoW is there is SO MUCH for a new player to learn and do. Dumbing everything down and taking any of the work out just creates a more shallow pot. Why is that desireable again?

How is making them cagable dumbing it down? If anything it rewards those that choose to do the grind with some gold. Making it profitable to do the grind might in fact bring some new people into the pet scene. I see nothing wrong with rewarding those that do the grind with some gold and possibly enticing some new players to the pet scene with such rewards.

[Vakeetah]

How is making them cagable dumbing it down? If anything it rewards those that choose to do the grind with some gold. Making it profitable to do the grind might in fact bring some new people into the pet scene. I see nothing wrong with rewarding those that do the grind with some gold and possibly enticing some new players to the pet scene with such rewards.

As the ehh... "proud" owner of no less than seven Broots, trust me, I'd love if they were cageable and could transform into a pile of gold coins.

However, if you think about leveling/playing characters as an "accomplishment", in the same fashion as achievements or Prestige rewards (which are BoP by nature) it simply doesn't make a lot of sense for them to become cageable and tradeable. So on that account, making things buyable/sellable can certainly be considered dumbing down, as you can get Gold anywhere without any particular effort - as opposed to actually doing the required stuff in the game, even if it's a trivial effort all the same.

What I mean, is that the pets are the reward on themselves. Saying that the reward could be Gold is kind of a fallacious argument when you look at both sides of it.

Would you do an achievement for a pet? Certainly.
Would you do it just for some gold? Probably not.

Would you feel accomplished for getting a pet you worked for? Just as much.
And would you feel any accomplishment for effortlesly opening your wallet to get it? Not a lot, beyond completionism.

[Moppet]

As for 'what is turning players off' and 'deepening sentiment', where exactly are you getting these statistics? er....lol, 'facts'?

There are no hard statistics, but comparing this expansion's community commentary with past ones, there's a shift in the overall temperature of the water.

Before Legion, whenever a pet was added that was not to some people's liking, there was complaining, expression of dislike, etc. Comments about quitting due to X pet weren't common at all.

Now, instead of just complaints, I've read a handful of collectors stating they're simply quitting collecting altogether. And even more statements about putting collecting on the back burner. The burn out is real in Legion (and not just for pet collectors).

To back up Quintessence's claims.. I'm one example of the Legion "burn-out".

I used to raid mythic and in past expansions, my guilds have ranked <US top50, however the whole grind and RNG aspect -and- general life busy-ness has made me have to step back and quit mythic raiding altogether because I can't do raid 4 days a week with the associated AP grinding AND grind honor for pvp pets AND level up alts for class hall pets and etcetc.

I know on my friendslist, a lot of people that used to collect pets just don't log in anymore, or are focused on raiding/ap grind instead of pets.

[Quintessence]

Well, a couple things that may help, without resorting to extreme measures, could be:
1) Ritual of Doom no longer requiring 3 people, and the bosses being soloable.
2) Evergreen Plots being available every day, similar to Farm plots (resetting with dailies)

Still RNG (bleh!) but with smoother means. It's not a matter of taking the exclusivity of Class Hall pets away by making them simply cageable, just making the logistics friendlier, because otherwise they'll be hard/annoying to obtain even in future expansions.

All great suggestions! Another one would be to simply lower the RNG on the pet drops once we're into the next expansion. Or even, dare I say it, make the drop 100%.

[Ranok]

This argument could also be used for why cageable class-specific pets (in the future) would be a good thing. The game isn't made for only those with a lot of time or desire to level multiple characters. What better way to allow access to a larger audience than to make these pets cageable?

Cageable means just pick them up on AH. Which is about the easiest way to get them. This totally trivializes (and probably pisses off) the folks who spent lot of time and energy leveling up an alt because they wanted that pet too.